Surprise AMA 10/30/2021 (From Ethiopia)

hi this is charles hoskinson broadcasting live from i don't even have a word for it i'm in ethiopia i don't know adequate addis ababa it's been a very long trip i was in south africa lovely cape town i went to zanzibar went to burundi and now i'm here in ethiopia and this is the first time where i've had somewhat decent internet at least decent enough to try a live stream and i apologize for that internet's a little difficult in africa from time to time but we managed to get a signal out and i miss you i miss the community i'm just talking to you guys i miss giving you an update i really miss the dialogue i missed the amas it's my favorite thing in the entire world and so hopefully y'all can hear me well hopefully you can see me well but let's get this party on the road all right first a brief update we had a gargantuan buildup in the month of september for the launch of alonso and then the cardano summit the summit was an overwhelming success over a hundred thousand people registered and attended the digital event thousands attended the physical events and we had a chance to really showcase i think over 200 or 300 presentations somewhere around there i are really just the heart of the cardinal community and how large things had become alonzo was a great success as a hard fork there were a few missing features that had to be added as well and we added them in october and now we're in the final stages of the integration of the pollutus application backend now what's going to happen with the plutus application back end is that you go from the assembly experience of plutus to the high-level language experience of plutus and all the connecting tissue and as a consequence a lot of these applications that are being built like sunday swap and meld and so forth they're going to start coming in and they're going to start deploying so that means that that whole stack is going to be under a lot of scrutiny stress and there's going to be a great update and iteration cycle so between the months of november and february with the babbage hard fork there's going to be a boatload of changes and refinements and optimizations and so forth there's a layered execution strategy with cardone so john woods the lead technical architect of cardano he's focused right now for the next six months on his work stream with optimization improvements of performance more throughput and scaling up system parameters okay so things like k things the block size all of that stuff reducing the memory footprint perhaps by more than 50 percent litany of changes with how the data structures work in the system utxohd where there's a hybrid storage of memory and hard drive and these things for the for the ut excel script compression there's dozens of things that are done in that agenda there's other parties that are going to come in they're going to optimize a lot of the haskell code as well because it was written once for correctness and now it needs to be optimized for performance so that's one layer of work stream another layer of work stream is mithril and that's underway a huge amount of work idyllic labs and galwa working diligently on that along with our engineers and that's the light client solution so that's full node security with light client experience it also means parallel validation of epics so much faster daedalus another effort is improving the experience of daedalus the full node and also adding in light client support on rn i o as well as improving the light client ecosystem overall so that's another work stream that's going on okay then there's the hydra work stream that's going on and if you guys attended the cardano summit you would have seen the hydro work stream and where we're at and the goal is to have something by q1 that's a good beta that then can be attached to commercial partners like dexes and other such things so that they can begin exploring how one would offload traffic into the hydra network for both payments and for state so for smart contracts so there's all that there's mamba and our current deadlines and timetables show that we think we can have a beta of that experience and for developers to begin playing with as early as january okay and mamba adds an evm support it also adds in yellow support okay so that's another layer that's going on governance is another layer that's going on so catalyst is about to become recursive over the next few funds each fund catalyst becomes more recursive what that effectively means is that the community sets the parameters for the next round and every aspect of catalyst is completely community controlled there is the emergence of cardano the open source project so basically it goes from a collection of custodial entities writing code to an open source ecosystem with many contributors across the board there are over 12 development companies right now eventually there's going to be hundreds if not thousands of contributors the linux kernel has so there's a series of processes that are underway to do that to move from a separate commercial code from reference code and and further iterate refine the cip process including all the on-chain stuff for voting okay so that's another thread that's going on there's a certification process so when you write a smart contract verify that the smart contract is correct by construction and certify it against the proof standards that's another threat that's going on there's all the identity integrations in it we have noticed fatif and treasury department and others are starting to really dial up the d5 regulation that means compliance is coming so you need an identity solution to accommodate that so full prism integration into the cardinal stack that's been underway because of the ministry of education deal the boost mobile deal 13 million users there that are being brought up to the ecosystem so that's another threat that's going on the dapp store that's another threat that's been going on we presented at the cardano summit these things so there's so many moving pieces and i could keep adding and adding and adding but it's getting to a point it would take two hours to talk about all this stuff and there's well more than i think three four hundred people that are executing the foundation is also scaling up dramatically they announced that the summit a 25 million dollar budget for 2022 and that means they're going to hire and maintain a staff of almost 100 people to take over and augment and add to the ecosystem that's already there there's also a lot of negotiations discussions about merco creating at least 100 million dollar fund that is africa focused to start building out an ecosystem there to augment complement what we're doing with the 6 million dollar africa fund and what i o is doing with the c fund catalyst over 150 proposals were funded in fund six largest fund yet they keep growing the size is doubling again eight million dollars fund seven starting in november okay that's another threat that's going on you see so it's a very busy ecosystem now and there's many many people waking up and many wakes of life walks of life that are working extremely hard at growing iterating refining this ecosystem now with success comes criticism we've noticed post-conference a fairly significant wave of social media criticism that's come usually it stems around price and that's to be expected there's usually a big build up and some draw off i and some people think that that's the worst thing in the world i do not care and i frankly don't read it don't engage with an interface with it any of these things and no one i think in the ecosystem really cares at this point every single metric of cardano it's looking real strong every metric and this africa tour we've met now with two heads of state the president of burundi and the president of zanzibar zanzibar is politically semi-autonomous burundi is obviously its own nation and there's overwhelming demand for what cardona offers in the e-governance domain and the identity domain and there's a lot of excitement about catalyst in particular we've met with a lot of startup accelerators and incubators there's a huge flow of businesses that want to build on cardone that i actually think it's a good idea and we're here we probably are going to have dozens of deals that come out of all the meetings that we've had here in africa and we're struggling to find the resources to accommodate them and that's just our reality as one company one member of the cardano ecosystem we see the dapps being built on cardano many of them are now funded for example the world mobile project over in zanzibar has 40 million dollars of capital they are deploying a nation-scale isp with cardano at the bedrock of it that will cover 1.8 million people and i expect that roll out from touring the sites them and looking at their technology to take about 12 to 24 months we're already in discussions about how we can port that to kenya and examine other jurisdictions like burundi which only at the moment has 2.6 percent connectivity trains moving and there's great ventures that are exploring these things like kbi for example promoter for swana's venture there's others like dc spark in another company that's run by nico and seba they've just announced evm sidechain in the ecosystem independent of the mamba sidechain so people are already starting to write solidity code that can be executed and fueled and powered by ada okay there's tens of thousands of nfts that have been issued over the last two months and over a hundred million dollars i think of economic activity surrounding the nfts so our apparently our native asset standard is quite popular there and it's growing a scope so that's just a brief update it's hard to completely stay connected to everything because we're doing so much work here in africa it's currently 9 42 p.m i we got up at 5 00 a.m every day's been this way and we've been pushing and pushing and pushing minister this minister that company this company that ambassador this ambassador to that some of these ambassadors really do enjoy drinking and so i packed an extra liver just to make sure i could get through it and obviously being in africa some of the food sometimes does cause some issues and we've had a few people already down on the trip with food poisoning but we've managed to push and power our way through and we're real excited for the remaining two countries and trip all right it's an ama let's get to your questions kids hey charles how are we doing on the rc 20 converter go i which k go s net so singularity net is in the process of migration ben and his team of course will give you guys a more comprehensive update erc 20 converter has two targets one is the main chain now that plutus is here we can actually do a lot of cool stuff with that the other is going to be mamba so the rc20 converter team is going to be shaken up and augmented a little bit we're add more resources to it and we're going to have a really nice two-way bridge tool for mamba because you're going from erc20 to erc20 solidity to solidity so it's much easier to do that erc20 to the native asset standard the first example of that is going to be singularitynet and that's going to basically be a case study and then we can kind of work our way backwards to a more generic framework for it the long-term goal is automation and bridging so it's easy to move between and rap assets and so forth and we view it as a nice commercial tool so when people come and they want to migrate there's a process a team and a collection of competencies there egypt updates egypt is the end of my trip i'll be spending some good time there and i'll certainly tweet a lot of stuff and talk to you guys about it hey charles when can we see the pib go live my best estimates i've gotten being here talking to the team is november and i believe those estimates are accurate so we'll see i believe november but now stuff happens blah blah blah to you you're the one in miami and of course we still have the paint chip per grade charles hi how is hydra going hydra is going very well i mentioned it in the introduction a huge amount of work is going into it and we're going to keep adding resources to hydra and we've been trying to identify some teams so we can accelerate and parallelize the work stream because it's such a high commercial priority and it's going to be very important that we'd be able to offload a large amount of the transaction traffic that that's going to come from all of the apps that are coming as the pab comes online cardano is going to get hammered by an enormous amount of traffic and that's fun but obviously you need to segregate and especially for microtransactions and so especially the stuff with world mobile and the telecommunications traffic that's coming because it's 1.

8 million users frequent use every single day wallet on their phone this type of stuff so hydra's a necessity for that so it's very important that we get that out in timely manner still a little bit of research going on there but i think we're converging to a pretty good idea of a 1.0 join late but did you talk about the release of jed that's now cody project so we're just kind of writing some reference stuff down but they're going to take that and commercialize it and we're real glad that they're doing that it's an exciting project and it's example of a one of the members of the cardano ecosystem and they've done a lot of really cool things cody and they're led by a great team over in israel we don't have a financial relationship in that respect we just kind of pulled a hyperloop where we designed something and then open sourced it released it and then let competing teams take it and build it and if jet is a successful model we fully anticipate that there's going to be a half dozen or more independent implementations of it hi charles thanks for the update how many employees does cardona actually have it's a protocol how many employees does tcpip have i don't really understand how this works my company has 600 people but as i mentioned there's 12 companies developing cardano software so there's probably several hundred people that wake up every day just on the software side for implementing things for core infrastructure when new light wallet from iog i cannot wait for it alex appledorn will have monthly updates for you guys on progress we have a four to six week sprint we're moving our way through and it's a very important very high priority that we get it out mithril is definitely something that we're going to launch the light wallet with so you'll get full node security with light wallet any news on possession we're going to kenya and we're going to talk to them in person there and we might even do a video together the very least we'll tweet some stuff and we'll write a blog post about the things we're doing our first pilot's going to be 150 000 micro finance loan but we've actually been meeting with a lot of mfis here throughout africa and we're talking about blockchain-based reputation system and peer-to-peer lending for specifically for microfinance so it's a very high priority for ours and possession i think is a perfect partner for it they have a great ceo they have great people good team on the ground good connections throughout kenya and pretty good market depth charles there's some fun about increasing block size doesn't really increase the amount of smart contracts per block could you please talk about that it's a lie if you increase the raw amount of storage the block has you of course can have more scripts in that block now there are some limitations about the total amount of computations per block and that obviously can be increased as well but then there's always a question about network propagation and based on those parameters so it's a complex issue we released a blog post about it but i'm not worried at all about throughput and cardano in fact i think the extended utxo model is massively paralyzable at the end of the day there's going to be outsourceable computation long term three five years into the future you're gonna have a situation where 99 of your computing is done off chain and it's checked with proofs on chain that it was done correctly and it's done in a distributed way so alice does a different computation than bob then a different computation eric and jim and jane bill okay so that can be done privately it can be done with different trust models but at the end of the day as long as you have a proof that the outsourceable computation was done correctly that's all that matters and that's what's checked on chain so you have a scarce resource on chain unlimited distributed resources off chain that's the model that makes sense there's other models but you're boiling the ocean if you try to chase global state makes no sense at all but there's just enormous amounts of fun i many people don't even understand how extended utxo works so and they criticize it and i look okay good for them so it's an interesting question how many transactions per second so pluto scripts are fundamentally different than a value transfer or a transaction to an nft token or these types of things so an average transaction realistically speaking for most network conditions with cryptocurrencies if you're sitting in the 50 to 100 tps for those average types of things you're probably doing okay for daily volume now it would be nice to get the core chain to around a 500 to 1000 tps if you do a lot of stuff about increasing the block size adding augmentations to the network stack with things like fountain codes or other types of things to allow you to propagate things a little bit smarter some compression magic and then you add in input endorsers for some parallelism and block processing i think that you probably can get to that sweet spot of about 500 2 000 for the core layer getting beyond that for any single charted architecture is not going to happen in a distributed system you'll see all these people easily fifty thousand hundred thousand well and they're really centralizing things and second they're offloading computation some sort of clever way of batching that's effectively a roll-up or a layer two solution so you can do that and cardano's designed for that with hydra in one direction and the side chains in the other direction and also if you have a lot of load balancing concerns so if you have an evm side chain you can always spin up multiple evm side chains and using cryptographic certification you can actually run those with a faster bft protocol than the base workforce protocol as effectively what we're doing with mamba but just in a single sharded instance and then we can obviously enhance and add more magic to that there's papers like rapid chain that kind of show how to do that so i don't think there's a tps problem and anybody who claims that they just don't understand what they're talking about it's more of a question of what is the off chain what is the odd chain pro component and how are you constructing the root of trust of the system and it's a really complex application specific question so for example at dex you're concerned about things like front running you're concerned about global availability of the contents of the book does somebody have a view of the order book before somebody else and can they take advantage of that or does somebody because of their position in the network have the ability to execute an order before someone else does we even see this decentralized exchanges with high frequency trading so that requires a different model of trust and operation usually using commitments and other things than let's say an oracle which has a very different model of trust you're periodically injecting information into the system you have some notion of veracity of the information that's being ejected to the system so everything is a snowflake and your tps is is just a means to an end and usually there's so much more to the story about that but then people use it as a marketing metric and as a consequence it becomes a measuring contest but it's meaningless a dump truck probably has a thousand horsepower but it's completely different than a coating sick even though the raw metric is the same they do different things they have different utility now this is a good question right here paper wallet with staking capability so this is a high priority of mine partial delegation and separation of the cold and hot infrastructure so proxy keys they've been quantified we've discussed them we had to make priorities we chose smart contracts as a priority over some of the shelley backlog work that's slated for delivery around the same time as genesis so that's definitely coming it's a very high priority so how it's going to work is you create a paper wallet and then that has the spending keys you delegate to a proxy key that daedalus your roy or some other infrastructure manages you can actively manage all your delegation preferences there if the hot infrastructure gets compromised you do you you just take your paper wallet again you link it to a new proxy key a new transaction and then it's done so there's many ways to do that when you have a hardware device you can sign a transaction on it so ledger and trezor you can do that paper there does have to be some copying of the private key into a memory on the hot device while it's signing a transaction to do that usually do that time of creation the paper wallet now we have had some discussions about could we actually do the signing for a proxy transaction in trusted hardware so if you have intel sgx or arm trust zone or amd's variant of a trusted execution environment could you in your tpm sign the transaction then broadcast that so you're using that in the memory of the tpm and it never touches the operating system so effectively you're emulating a ledger or treasurer with the paper wallet so there's some discussion about how would that be done it's not a super high priority the highest priority i have right now is just simply segregation of infrastructure separating the coal from the hot infrastructure and a notion of proxy keys for both voting and for delegation and i'd like to improve privacy at the same time with that so i'd like to use some sort of construct that when you delegate to a proxy key you can't link back to the value keys so that you have anonymous staking i think it would be a little easier a little bit better for the ecosystem for that so we're having discussions about how to do that there's a lot of constructs to put in mithril might help okay hello charles you look tired yes africa has been long a little bit of everything hi charles when we speak with eric weinstein i think a conversation would be super productive i did have a call with eric we spent about 45 minutes going back and forth we spent about 30 of those 45 minutes talking about math stuff he's a very very smart guy very interesting guy and i think it would be really fun to have a podcast conversation with him one of these days we just haven't had the time to meet up but we did connect over private messages with twitter and he gave me his phone number and we i just called him and we had a real real nice call and he's a super nice guy and as i said super smart guy so we'll get around to it it's on the list it's just africa tour africa tour africa tour hi charles i don't know if i understood right but you anticipate the world mobile first infrastructure will be built in two years yeah so there's already world mobile infrastructure in zanzibar there's two locations so there's a school that i visited and it has about 340 girls there and then there is a fish market in stone town and zanzibar where they they basically built these towers so there's kind of multi-layer architecture there so the microwave towers do air fiber and microwave and they broadcast on the i think 200 megahertz spectrum and then on the other thing they've been exploring for is is wi-fi and mesh networks and that's your low-cost connectivity and then they're looking at balloons to create broadcast across the entire island i think the balloon broadcast spectre was 600 megahertz and i think that's 4g so there's a lot of discussions they're having right now about how to accommodate that but zanzibar in particular is very keen about the blue economy so that's fish in the ocean sixty percent of the gdp of zanzibar is related to aquaculture so seaweed production fish all this stuff the maintenance of boats the problem is that you can't really govern or manage illegal fishing or the blue economy unless you have connectivity with the vessels only two percent of the vessels that fish are internet enabled or have motility maybe they have a motor so they're paddle boats or sails they go out so you get over fishing in the in the areas where they tend to spawn and hatch so it's a government priority to invest in the blue economy over the next 24 months and zanzibar to actually get the boats to go further out than five miles and then also get them connected to the internet somehow project loon from google is something that world mobile is looking into using some form of tethered balloon to broadcast a radius around the sea and the island itself and then a network of microwave towers that use meshnets to kind of connect people locally what's really interesting is the idea of cooperative ownership of the mesh networks and the tower infrastructure so the idea would be that as people use the wi-fi then they pay for it with some form of a token over time they actually get equity inside the tower and over time the tower becomes owned by the community that uses it instead of the isp so you create basically micro isp cooperatives and they become small businesses that broadcast things so this is an open business model and they're moving very rapidly and they have a great team there and they have wonderful political access we met with the president of zanzibar and all the ministers who are relevant so there's no regulatory burden for this rollout but there is still some issue with political autonomy between tanzania and zanzibar because i believe tanzania controls the broadcast space for for 4g so there's some work that has to be done between those two areas and they also tanzania controls the monetary policy so can't quite do a cbdc in san sabara quickheads but maybe the special economic zone can be done but yeah two years a lot of progress and we're going to keep dialing in because there's questions about capacity exchange for bandwidth how to build that cooperative model of the ownership of the towers meshnet protocols we do a lot of network stuff and there's tons of things to think about and years ago we talked about arena recursive internet work architecture we never lost the passion for arena and if you're building all this network infrastructure that's actually a really good place to introduce it and a lot can be done there that can fix fundamental problems that the internet has where are smart contracts they're live they're running their smart contracts on cardona right now grow a [ __ ] brain charles do you like watches like paddock paddock philippe i'm a jaeger lucut fan and i'm also a vegetarian constantine fan i really the skeletonization of azure and constantine and chicago the gyroterbium is just amazing jackie draw is also a great because i love the automatons that they make the little bird repeater and so forth so these are all just beautiful watches and they're works of art and just real fun to look at pizzo also has the alto plano which is the one of the thinnest watches ever made mechanical watches ever made that's automatic in fact they have to use platinum for the for the flywheels because the gold is not heavy enough for it you this is something the community you guys have to do a little bit better job at i am charles hoskinson i run input output i'm not cardano and i'm not every single project on card auto every day i get an email from somebody who has an issue with uroy or one of the cardona ecosystem projects we don't run sunday swap we're not a member of the team we haven't invested in them we have no formal relationship we love the fact they're building on cardano but we don't know we don't know what their roadmap is when they're launching these types of things so it's really important that people understand how to separate us from the ecosystem and understand that the ecosystem is not a position where there are hundreds of applications hundreds of independent projects there's over 300 funded endeavors on catalyst that are independent of io we haven't ever asked for catalyst money so all of those things and catalysts have no no direct commercial relationship with us so i don't know the deadlines the time you can ask me and you're just like asking some random guy on the street no one tells me i find out when you guys find out so please do please do take that under heisman hi charles any relationship with nervous going any update on the force bridge yeah we're working with them through the utxo alliance there's also a lot of discussions about what's going on with an account emulation on top of extended utxo that's being done by mutual knowledge systems my cto roman is much more connected to that particular project than i am but i get briefs on it about every month and things are coming along and another idiot coin burning so why i it's honest question to the audience why do people think it's possible to burn ada it's not it's not i own some ada you guys have some ada to burn ada you physically have to forcibly confiscate ada from somebody and destroy it as for changing the monetary policy of cardano there's only ever going to be 41 billion and for 45 billion ada that's like going to bitcoin and saying well there's 21 million bitcoin theoretical maximum let's go take that to 19 billion you're destroying the integrity of the entire cryptocurrency's monetary policy by tinkering with a monetary policy that was set years ago and that social contract is built by four years of of purchasing decisions of people entering the ecosystem so i don't understand why people keep thinking a burn is possible or desirable and in every case a burn has happened it has not resulted in my knowledge like stellar when they destroyed a huge amount of reserve supply in that case it was held by a foundation it didn't actually do anything for the underlying price of the asset so i don't understand it i just don't the monetary policy is the monetary policy no one can change it it's there and until the government system gets so sophisticated that a super majority of the people can vote on something like that there's not going to be any attempt to even modify change the inflation rate at all so the only way to burn ada is either to have a person voluntarily do it and so they decide to destroy their own money they put a dollar on the table set it on fire or to hack someone and steal their money somehow and then destroy their money in both cases you're advocating basically theft or stupidity for your own enrichment so i don't understand it i really don't maybe the audience here can help me but it's it's been a bug bear of mine for a long time and it just keeps coming up again and again and articles come out and it's a fixed supply guys it's like bitcoin that monetary policy makes sense there's 12 years of history there it's created two trillion dollars of wealth it created an entire ecosystem why should there be deviation and manipulation for short-term speculators who don't care at all about the ecosystem that's not the point it's a social contract code is law once you set these things you don't change these things unless there's a constitutional amendment process and a stage process that's ubiquitously agreed for doing so and burning is just against everything that i stand for as a person and i have no control or choice even if i wanted to do it there's no mechanism in cardano to enable that it's fixed like bitcoin is i just don't get it charles is very rude i don't get it you guys ask the questions i give you the answers i i give you an honest answer i'm not here to protect your feelings but i'm sure we can build a safe space for you no ergo announcements to the senate i think ergo was at the cardano summit because they do a bunch of stuff and but remember it's independent cryptocurrency so they do their own thing and they've been building a lot of infrastructure that's quite useful for cardano like ergodex and so forth and we've certainly learned a lot about it this is a great question where can i get access to blue's dev so i've had several conversations with the cardano foundation about the idea of a cardano certified solutions provider or a certified plutus application developer so we need some form of accreditation certification system because we what we did on the io side is we ran two training cohorts for plutus pioneers we did the capstone over 3000 people were trained there were a lot of really cool interesting projects we built a nice little development community and there's a great discord there and that's going to grow really quickly and there's also the prism pioneers program so there's an sdk for prism and that's growing really fast the other thing we did is we hired eight development companies just to come in and write stuff and learn how plutus works and that was twofold one we needed a feedback loop to test the politics application backend and an end-to-end infrastructure and two we wanted to build up solutions providers that you guys could hire and basically write blues applications or catalyst funded ventures could partner with to augment their development teams and help them scale up and working with us they would develop a lot of competency in the developing model so you're kind of training the trainers you're training the developers to in turn go and do stuff so look for fred gregard and what the foundation is going to announce for 2022 i know they have some form of a certification and training agenda and they have some form of an accreditation agenda and hopefully we can formalize that a little bit more we'll see what happens there we're going to continue growing the plutus pioneers program the p.a.b is coming out imminently and when that happens there's going to be a big feedback loop and i expect up until babbage there's going to be a lot of burn-in post-babbage in february probably do another cohort and train another large group we're going to run another africa class as well so lars is going to go live in ghana i believe in january and they're going to train a big cohort of haskell developers there that's going to be the largest class that we've ever done and of course they're going to be pushed into the plutus domain so there's a burgeoning ecosystem that's kind of growing up with this stuff and it's being co-developed at the same time with the tooling at the same time with the certification processes both on people organizations and software and for great ecosystems you need to do that so time when will coins actually start deploying on blockchain i mean what about singularity nat that's an example all the nfts those are examples pay attention there's a lot of coins world mobile is another example 40 million dollar coin oh what can you do you can't really do much can you oh my lord oh my lord what are your thoughts on michael saylor's influence on the crypto space he is full maximalist and spreads false information do you see this level of institutional influence as a growth obstacle no no i don't really at all i mean if you look at the trends there's been a systematic movement of value from the proof of work side of the equation to aggregate proof of stake the entire maximalist argument is proof of stake is evil it's central banking it's a ponzi scheme it doesn't work it's perpetual emotion if all the value flows from one to the other and that system is sustainable and stable and it has the benefit of being millions of times more power efficient much higher throughput and programmability it's really morally hard to keep arguing for the past you're at some point are like what was that guy paul bunyan or who is the railroad guy who is competing against the mechanized railroads and ended up getting himself killed by working too hard laying railroad tracks that that's where we're at and if mike wants to run around and tell us how great bitcoin is and how everything else is a scam and it's bad i mean this is prerogative he's putting his money where his mouth is he's invested hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars in bitcoin and he's a real bright guy and i respect his work in the education sector and i frankly don't feel that he's creating problems in the dialogue he's just expressing his philosophical beliefs i do believe in general that bitcoin maximalism has created an untolerable level of toxicity that is very damaging to the overall adoption of cryptocurrencies and for new people entering the space when you have guys like lex friedman or eric weinstein or others they come on in and they're intellectually curious and they're asking just basic questions of why do people care about cryptocurrencies and suddenly they trip up on a holy war of proof of work versus proof of stake bitcoin versus the altcoin space maximalism and the minute they say one thing or the other they either get brutally attacked or loving adolation that's not a healthy dynamic that's that's not good it's not like when you download google chrome as a web browser suddenly vagabonds from mozilla firefox show up and break your mailbox or they call you an evil person or you're you're stupid or something like that i'd be psyched we don't have that level of polarization with anything else but yet with the crypto space we seem to have descended that way people talk their book mike milvogratz talks his book tim draper talks his book mike saller talks his book and they're gonna do that as does mark cuban and people take their bets i i believes firmly in cardano because of the roadmap we have and because we built it to be something that's around in decades and we also are doing the work of going to africa going to the developing world bringing in millions to tens of billions of users many of which are unconnected many of which have intermittent power many of which have feature phones not even smartphones and we've gotten to the point where we're talking to cell phone manufacturers considering even buying cell phone manufacturers we've we basically helped build up an isp that's deploying internet over millions of people we're talking to atm manufacturers to create caching cash out points we're talking to mfis microfinance institutions about creating inflows of direct foreign investment and blockchain-based identity we're propagating blockchain credentials across the entire continent of africa we're even talking about setting up the african credential alliance all of these things are necessary to build an ecosystem and they take years to decades to fully realize now they will bring in tens to hundreds of millions of high-value users over time into the cardano ecosystem because it's been bespoke built for that not the bitcoin ecosystem not the ethereum ecosystem not the solana ecosystem and because all of that is vertically integrated and those on and off ramps are b to g to c plays and the government is bringing them in they're not going anywhere they're going to cardano so i'm patient i'm a young guy i'm 33 the ecosystem is young and the technology is young and what matters is the evolution and what matters is the foundations and when you bet on bitcoin you're betting on 12 year old technology that doesn't really upgrade very quickly that has a cult behind it about proof of work that refuses to acknowledge any innovation anywhere else in the space when you bet on cardano you're betting on an ecosystem that is evolving at a very rapid pace that has a multi-paradigm computing model so you use different smart contract stacks and can emit side chains and so forth that is built with formal methods and peer reviews so there's an enormous amount of foresight that goes into the rollout in deployment of the technology that's built with the community very collaborative dozen development companies and it's turning into a larger open source project that has 1.4 billion dollars of capital behind it in the largest decentralized treasury in the world which is controlled by the community itself and has high growth metrics year by year just as an example the last three epics have had more transaction volume in them than every single transaction in 2017 and 2018 combined so we're growing rapidly as an ecosystem when you've been on cardinal that's what you're betting on is is that trend and saying okay if we keep that trend and these things keep happening and that ecosystem development keeps happening with a foundation that's politically neutral in switzerland with an independent board with a billion dollars of capital behind it a decentralized grant agency that goes out and injects capital into all kinds of things to build up the ecosystem a very driven business strategy that has all kinds of vc at all kinds of different levels and great developers and great engineers and great scientists and a big decentralized brain where will that movement be taken in five years and 10 years in 15 years that's what i would bet on because i don't see any of those things with bitcoin i see this bizarre behavior where you just believe if you buy something you do no work no one does any work and auto magically you wake up and everything is worth 10 times more and there's no desire of social responsibility and commitment investment there just buy bitcoin and you're done here at cardano ada is the beginning there's catalyst there's expert participation there's delegation there's voting there's all these things you do there's this huge community and then you have problems you want to solve and so you start building and deploying things and you have gaps and there's this vibrant ecosystem there and it's you to decide that there are so many state pool operators they donate food to kids in argentina they give clean drinking water to people in nigeria they electrify people's homes give them lights for the first time their life in kenya they do things in vietnam they do things in indonesia they make this protocol their own and they feel a social responsibility to it with bitcoin i don't see a lot of that in that maximalist mindset i just see a very close-minded thing it wasn't that way always when i first entered the bitcoin space many years ago in 2011 i saw really amazing people who were very evangelistic and they felt a social and moral responsibility for propagating bitcoin roger ver for example before the whole split he would make it his mission in life to make as many businesses as possible except bitcoin you get his hair cut you tell the barber you need to take bitcoin you go to the coffee shop he wouldn't leave until the lady took bitcoin go and eat at a restaurant he wouldn't leave until they took bitcoin he was always selling always hustling always pushing bitcoin and that was the culture and the ethos i don't see that culture in ethos from the rank and file people maybe i'm just blind to it now and i really don't appreciate the brutal personal attacks that they make it's not we disagree with you you are a scammer you're a liar you're an evil person and i i just don't see how that has any value now has mike contributed to that his statements are his statements i don't feel it's particularly hostile he's never really said anything about us and that's fine but i do believe maximalism in general as a concept is a road to nowhere and it's a religion at this point yeah this is a great example there's a good question charles what are your thoughts on mean coins like doge and sheep being in the top ten so all you guys running around who are obsessed with price obsessed with price obsessed with burn ada why is the price falling why is this doing i've been in the space for so long i've watched everything when bitcoin was under a dollar we traded it on spreadsheets and we used for a paypal account it was violation of the end user license agreement everybody did it in the cryptocurrency space he used to i think used paypal to send money to mount cox okay it was just like nobody cared because it was a fun little thing it was like buying a jordan's stone off of the a diablo 2 account or something like that that was the same category it was in and then it went all the way up to thirty dollars wow and it fell down to four dollars then it went from four dollars to two hundred fifty dollars and two hundred fifty down to eighty then eighty up to twelve hundred dollars one thousand two hundred then one thousand two hundred all the way down to 250.

it stagnated there for a while then it went all the way up to 20 000 then it collapsed all the way down to 4 000 and 4 000 to 64 000 and then collapsed to the more and then it went back up the markets are crazy and they value things in very crazy ways and i don't understand it i really don't and i know for a fact any single person on the protocol development side who chases market appreciation through gimmicks and marketing and all these other things first they seldom accomplish it in the long term and they sound a lot the big connect guys and second the markets are very fickle take a way back machine snapshot january 1st of coin market cap from the beginning of the website to today and look at the top 10 of who was in the top 10 who was in the top 10 who was in the top ten and you see how much it changes so they have their exit center entrances and people flip each other all the time the people who stay are the people who are committed to a mission and actually want to do something with the platform they have real answers for what is the use of utility why is this thing here what's the point of this stuff so i'll give you a very good example of a very real business problem facebook recently announced that they're changing the name of the company from facebook to meta because they're obsessed with this thing called the metaverse so there's a book that was published in 2019 it's called the spatial web and in toxil and there's a spatial web foundation and all these other guys and it talks a lot about the spatial web what the hell is the spatial web okay put your hats on it's going to be a little bit of a journey so in the beginning we had pcs and pcs ran programs and programs connected databases that's your model then suddenly the internet comes around and pcs begin getting networked together and now you have servers and you have websites browsers okay and you have this notion of a server database okay then you move to mobile computing and then mobile computing has apps and then apps have the cloud yay cloud okay that's web 2.0 and then once 3.0 they say what the hell is that and so the original idea was this notion of a semantic web so instead of just information images text videos pictures you have contextual information so the canonical example is i go into a website about gardening and farming and i see the word greenhouse the website the ai is sophisticated enough to understand that greenhouse there is talking about a structure with glass that keeps the heat in and allows plants to grow and has constant humidity so or whatever the humidity is for the plants as opposed to a website about painting homes and dimensions greenhouse and they're actually talking about a physical house that's green okay there's ambiguity unless you have context the semantic web would understand the difference between these two things the spatial web is this idea that you take that base layer okay and you pull it up and now you have the internet of everything people places things locations all those things together become liquid and they get merged into the internet and they become semantically aware and so your interfaces change you go from web browser or mobile interface to augmented reality and virtual reality and mixed reality your computing logic changes fundamentally so you go from programs to web applications to mobile applications to smart contracts and ai and these types of things and your data layer changes tremendously you go from a database to a server to the cloud to all of those things plus blockchain okay so when you talk about that in its totality the metaverse is probably going to be worth more than the physical world because there's more of them and the majority of human beings by 2050 will work in the digital world not the physical world and a lot of physical jobs are going to be automated and robots are going to live there and do those things so we as humans are going to live in the digital virtual world and we're going to have all kinds of virtual world virtual real estate at some point will be worth as much as if not more so than physical real estate it's in the same concept but that's the case so this is where you ask yourself why do nfts matter why does identity matter cryptographically secure identity and nfts create scarcity and uniqueness and the access on off-ramps for these things and creates identity for avatars inside the systems so zuckerberg's got this he's a very smart guy and he's got a giant fortune 500 company behind him he sees the future and he knows we're gonna be living in ready player one and he knows that iot is going to bathe everything they even have paint that has sensors in it so you paint a surface and then what you can do is put your phone down on it and the sensors get activated through near-field communication and then suddenly the state of the table is known knowable and with augmented reality then you could see all kinds of things about the table and so forth like if you're at a restaurant the menu will just automatically appear if you're a waitress serving a restaurant with apple glass their ar product that's coming out in a few years the tables you haven't visited in a while will be read the tables that you have visited will be green and if somebody is visibly looking they want to order or something or they could just signal to you a little asterisk will appear or something okay this is the ar vr world that we live in you need a control layer to sort all that stuff out and either it's totally centralized controlled by a small group of people and that's a super [ __ ] dystopian black mirror world or the spatial web is going to be open and free and every time we rebuild the web we have a chance to do that when we went from web 1.0 the web 2.0 to now web 3.

0 we're moving in that direction so when you ask yourself okay does cardano have a shot of providing something interesting oh sure we have dids with the taller prism we have the native asset standard for metadata we sure as hell can build a spatial web protocol stack that can live as a side chain of cardano and once you have that you could talk about basically being the platform that ensures the property rights the privacy rights and the movement of value for the entire virtual world which will be worth more than the physical world tens of trillions of dollars to have those capabilities and a route to such a thing and a 5 10 15 year time horizon if the community wants to do that is an example of use and utility and vision and seeing that fortune fiber companies are chasing that and you can offer a decentralized version of that is an example of the utility of blockchain and why blockchain because the only other way to do it is to put somebody in charge which means mark zuckerberg will basically own your digital avatar your digital identity and decide your property rights in the virtual world with no election and he's king for life blockchain is the only other way to do that it's not optional okay and no government's going to protect you in this respect because even if it does do you really want china or the united states of america or germany being in total control forever of the virtual world and maybe some international body will sort it out how do they deal with global warming or any of these other existential transnational problems private standards of blockchain trust the math not the people when i look at dogenship where's the vision there that's one problem that i've just articulated for you guys when you really start thinking it through looking at the spatial web and where that's going and how transformative that's going to be for you and by 2050 the impact that's going to have on humanity they offer no solutions or approaches to deal with that cardno has an ability to do that if we so choose as an ecosystem quickly and it's just something that can be added into that protocol stack so there's real value there and that's just one dimension then there's the transformation of d5 to realfi and real fi is like d5 plus regulation plus identity plus metadata plus certification plus standards these types of things right so that's a whole new category right there real fi and by the way we're bringing tens of millions of people with mfi plays and identity plays and i think into the cryptocurrency space then their on ramp is going to be cardano for that type of stuff and why do they do it because do you guys know what people pay for loans here in ethiopia first there's a 30 inflation rate 30 percent you think oh it's bad in america 30 percent here banks lend out to good creditable mfis at 18 the average interest rates are at least 22 24 and the black market rates can go over 100 to 150 percent some of the high unemployment areas 600 percent per annum that's the reality they live today solving that one problem transforms the lives of 120 million people just here in the country i currently am in and tomorrow i'm going to be in a new country and there's 100 million people there who need that too okay solving that particular problem having a solution stack you need cash and cash out you need integration with trusted hardware and atms you need stable coins you need dexes to move value around you need blockchain based identity systems you need some sophisticated layer two privacy solutions to be able to route all these things through you need marketplaces to form they need to be liquid they need to have browser-based interfaces these types is a huge stack the mfi stack that's a product category it takes years to pursue it and it's a subcategory of realfi right lots of stuff there so real use and utility if you have vision whether it be metaverse vision or real five vision or governance as a service vision whatever the hell it is property rights data rights privacy rights these types of things four millions to billions of people produce and preserve trillions of dollars of collective value the point of these protocols is they're competing to provide a philosophy for the world for these things and if we get there we change the world we make it a lot better if we don't get there by default it goes to the fangs facebook owns it apple owns it google owns it netflix owns it spotify owns it they all have their own control in their own little areas and they do their own little things and we just have to accept a small group of plutocrats and oligarchs basically around the world and get to decide what your world is i don't see that vision when people buy doji ship because i don't see the conversation in cardano i see the conversation i see people talking about the future how do we make the world a better place how do we build applications i see the same thing in the ethereum space with dojo i see how do i make money how do i get a 10x how do i get 100x so do i think that's going to be around in 10 years no absolutely not because there's no there's nothing there to keep it up and keep it permanent it's the conversation the belief the applications the use of utility the entrance into these emerging markets that change everything and if you can't do that well then man that's one man's opinion and i'm sure tomorrow we're going to get brutalized by those two communities how do i get value by doing nothing go work for the government chrono cross or chrono trigger while chrono trigger has the better soundtrack hey charles what do you think of pure proof of stake no forking super low fees yeah that's marketing guys no such thing you always have forks and these networks there's no notion of no forks there's always forks in terms of super low fees i mean all proof of stake protocols have and yes you do need delegation point of forks is do you have an augment a a structured way of deciding on them executing them and forcing compliance with them all right any information about a cardonal wallet plug into the web 3 protocol yeah it's going to have to happen at some point that's the whole interoperability play so there's rosetta support which gives us exchange connections and then there's going to be some iso standards that come in for central bank connections and then obviously web3 has to be brought into the stack it can be done through mamba the advantage of mamba is it's an evm clone so that side chain can connect all the ethereum infrastructure so you get all that for free and because mambo is connected to cardano transitivity says you're now connected to web3 so you have a bridge for it and it's very easy for software to make that seamless so yeah all that stuff works well we need a proof of system for pluto's contracts boy do we ever that's part of the certification chain there's a lot of discussion about formal methods and plutus and that's going to be a big conversation in 2022 i like lean i put 20 million dollars of my own money into lean for math and we'll get there we'll get there which country has been most receptive so far in africa burundi by far met with the president talked to everybody there they're definitely ready and willing to innovate and they're pretty tired of the status quo and i think that we're cautiously optimistic but the ministers definitely are very open there's a lot of challenges there and it's it's a country that definitely needs many different things to work together to to get to the next level and blockchain isn't the only thing 11 of the countries got electricity 89 doesn't only 2.