Some Reddit Questions

[Music] hi everybody this is Charles Hoskinson broadcasting live from warm sunny Colorado it's a lovely night it's about 9:30 at night and I figured I'd answer a few of your questions that you guys have been accumulating on Reddit yeah we have many different communication platforms Twitter reddit telegram we have lots of interactive events that we do and it's nice to rotate between all of them so anyway let's go to reddit and let's see what you guys have now I have yet to look at reddit today so this is going to be fun let's see if we can find something interesting and this is an experiment might turn out horribly wrong but oh well this is an interesting one can we delete the old Dedalus wallet okay so this isn't a reference question to when you have an old copy of Dedalus and you have the new Dedalus the byron reboot Dedalus that you've installed so the question the answer to that question is it depends so the first things first ask yourself do you have your keywords your account recovery phrase your wallet recovery phrase written down your 12 key words somewhere and can you verify that you can restore your wallet from those twelve key words now if the answer is yes and you've done it you've tested it and for a fact it works then the reality is you actually can erase any Dedalus and wallet you want you can get rid of flight get rid of the old wallet get rid of the new wallet because you always know that you can restore regenerate the wallet whenever you need to so the safe thing to do would be to verify that your keywords still work restore and recover your wallet make sure you can spend from it and everything looks fine so so that's the answer to that question as long as you have your wallet recovery phrase your account recovery phrase whatever we ended up calling it those twelve keywords then yes you can erase any wall that you so choose just be careful to verify that you those words work do not assume because you wrote them down two years ago while drinking that they work please by that they work and verify you can spend from the wallet prior doing anything involving deletion and destruction of a wallet you're unilaterally in charge of this there is no way to recover if those keywords are bad so that's the step there okay so let's see the next question we got there's a question about phase 2 Ambassador Program in the purpose of the Ambassador Program in general and where we're going with the Ambassador Program all right so ambassadors are basically special community members who through meritocratic means have decided that they want to spend some amount of their time either a little or a lot basically representing the ecosystem Cardinal now in an ideal world ambassadors would actually be selected through a voting process and funded via a blockchain process so when Voltaire Zhou and all of our voting tools are deployed ideally every single ambassador if they have any special privileges or badges or representation would basically be representatives of the ecosystem and they would probably be elected on terms and they probably would be compensated by some amount of inflation from the Treasury so that's where we'd like to go where we're currently at is the best vehicle to manage ambassadors is the Cardinal foundation and they have to make the digital toll difficult choices of inclusion and they have to make the difficult choices of basically how to manage that group of people and it's really a try before you buy and it's giving us a sense of how to run a program like this as an ecosystem and what our expectations as an ecosystem would be for ambassadors and as the program evolves eventually it'll become more decentralized a great example would be the Cardinal effect originally I which Kay funded that out of necessity we just needed some sort of show to talk about Cardno but we really didn't want to have any editorial control over content and we didn't want to be able to tell Rick or Philippe or anybody what to do on a day to day so we simply subsidized it but we stayed out of the actual day-to-day affairs we created a firewall there however the very fact that we were funding it creates a slight conflict of interest or a perception of interest so then the Cardinal foundation took over funding so it's a nice transfer and it allows some more degree of autonomy and independence but still then what if they never make critical content on the Cardinal foundation then people say well the only reason they're not criticizing is they're being paid by that so ultimately the best approach would be for that show to be funded by the watch in itself so similar to the Ambassador Program it's going through it's kind of a series of broadening of funding to a point where eventually they work for all of you as opposed to any of us and so they have complete and absolute monetary freedom it perceived or otherwise it's a good question okay oh this one is interesting how will Plutus support refinement types a year and a half ago Charles said Plutus would support refinement types but I haven't found anything in the language on the design or implementation will be integrated into the language or piggy back on liquid haskell or will we end up with something like liquid frutas yeah so refine the types are kind of an interesting concept so for those who don't know refinement type is basically just a type which is kind of a thing an integer or a natural number yes something and it's combined with a predicate and the point of refinement types is to assist with the process of program verification so you have some idea of how you'd like your program to behave and then you need to verify that it's actually behaving that way so in practice you're looking things like buffer overflows division by zero map's missing keys some cases you can show that perhaps the program is not terminating in certain cases so there's a little thing you're looking for and the point of refinement types is to give you an explicit way of building more complexity into your description of how things should transform data should transform types should transform in your program so that you're actually able to verify that the program is behaving correctly now this by no means is the only tool in the verification tool bag that formal methods is a very rich and beautiful topic and our own Philip Wadler actually were a great book talking about it and Agda and I'd highly recommend it because I believe the book is free there's also a great book from Ben when Pierce which talks about software foundations and that uses a language called [ __ ] which goes into exhaustive detail on many of these techniques that are used for formal verification now it's a good question of whether we will support this and how will we support this perhaps the biggest advocate of it was someone who worked for a company named Rebecca Valentine and she and others like Philip cot were quite interested in liquid haskell and we actually did pursue talent from perhaps working with Renji to working with Nick Eva's ooh and others to try to build an agenda where we could upgrade haskell to support refinement types on a native capacity this is a very involved affair and there's still a lot of friction and sharp edges with with the use of refinement types and over time we determined that we weren't getting a lot of productivity with the concept in our own development workflow so the question remains does it make sense to write Plutus programs with these added types and would that add value to the construction of flutist programs and honestly it could but then you also have to look at other techniques like quick check and model checking you have to also look at just how you would write specifications and how you would standardize and design smart contracts and perhaps in a templated way and you go from the specification to the actual program so this is a slightly more involved story and it doesn't seem that flutist 1.0 will support any notion of refinement types where it's at a because the primary advocates of that approach years ago have since left and gone on to other things be we've learned more about how to write good smart contracting languages and in our view it's probably more prudent to focus on verification of things like Marlowe where you actually can get very clear-cut answers because the nature of that DSL where you actually can use a Sat solver and explicitly show that things are happening whereas when you have more feature-rich languages it's a bit more difficult to do that so perhaps makes more sense to express languages expressing desires using as simple of a DSL as possible and then that gives you a much lower chance of having bugs in your program because the language is simply doesn't let you do as many things as a full-featured programming language would do yet you're still able to solve the majority of things that you care about so for example the modeling of the movement of money is a super important topic and if you can keep that as simple understandable and verifiable as possible then all those classes of bugs that can result in the loss of money the locking of money or the incorrect balance of money moving would be completely eliminated or at least greatly reduced and then of course you could have some edge cases and you can deal with those word when they make sense but this would be a great thing to think about in a more holistic sense for Plutus to something beyond 20/20 so that's a very good question from astral Emperor alright now this one's interesting fundamental research about card on oh yeah I did see this so this one was actually sent to me through a different Channel and I clicked through to actually comment directly on the thread so basically this this website coined aside I've never seen it before it's got a decent layout when you click on card on Oh on coin decide basically they say that we have not launched our main net and apparently they believe that we are some form of ERC 20 token I have no idea how anybody who professes to be providing credible information and researching about tokens can [ __ ] up that badly but serious this calls into question pretty much every single thing about this entire due diligence platform everything is just wrong absolutely wrong zero value transactions okay we're not quantum resistant at the moment I mean this is just really shoddy research and it calls into question and it actually brings up a broader point about the industry as a whole and our ability as an industry to create accurate information about cryptocurrency projects there are some ratings agencies that seem to have technical people and provide some degree of credibility in their ability to understand a cryptocurrency for example Weiss say what you will about them as an organization Weiss has been consistent in their desire to attempt to understand our industry and sometimes they say things that are completely accurate but at least you can communicate with them and that there's professionals behind that organization and they are attempting to try to rhyme and Weezie reason in some quantitative way rating a cryptocurrency that's a very difficult topic but every now and then we see these websites pop up like coin decide and I'm sorry if you think Cardinal is an e rc 20 token or we haven't launched our main net you deserve to lose your job you're just incompetent absolutely incompetent five minutes of basic research would tell you otherwise simply downloading the Daedalus wallet would tell you otherwise it's just very obvious that we didn't go down that route and we are in maintenance a well you have federated consensus then that by that same logic ripple would not have launched their main net yet so is ripple not a cryptocurrency is a number three market cap cryptocurrency with a multi-billion dollar company behind it and hundreds of thousands of users and it's been around for years that's not a main net okay federated consensus does not necessarily mean that you're not a cryptocurrency you certainly can be just means we haven't decentralized everything yet it's running in a static and federated mode just like ripple is and in a very short period of time it will be a fully decentralized system again this does not mean that we're launching a main net the mainland launched in September of 2017 if we were so lucky to be our c20 we would have been able to get Shelley out a lot faster because we would have had to worry at all about backwards compatibility so this is just completely wrong so don't pay attention to these websites they they shame themselves coin designed you're a very shameful web site okay Charles one will be coming a stake pool operator be so simple that even idiots can do it something along the lines of download a pack install a couple more clicks and keyboard strokes and bam you're operating a pool is it in our best interest to have people who have no idea what they're doing basically running critical pieces of infrastructure in Cardinal the entire point of segregation of people by speciality is that there is a reward for merit there is a reward for people actually having enough basic knowledge not only to turn something on but to also understand the error messages when it doesn't turn on or to have to reconfigure it for different environments or to optimize it and frankly we have seen many people on the instead of eyes test now demonstrate this competency to the extent where they've even modified source code themselves to get their notes working just the way that they want or to optimize things that they want so there is absolutely no reason to have a race to the bottom and try to edit proof running a stake pool it is important to make it understandable it's important to have a rich user experience it's important to have very accurate comprehensive documentation but let's be clear this is a competitive business and people have to make economic decisions of who do they trust to run a stake pool and stake their money for them because at the end of the day it's competitive and if coulais wins or pool beat wins if B doesn't win because of a Mis configuration everybody who's delegated to be losses in that this is one of the reasons why this this proof of stake model is something that rewards quality and professionalism and competence because you always want your people to make the block right to have the right configuration to provide as many services as possible so not only is it a race for lots of stake pools to the up to that saturation point that parameter but it's also a race for competency so even if we made it a simple user experience you would be drownded out very rapidly by others but that's no excuse to be elitist if people really do want to try it then we need and have a moral obligation to provide comprehensive documentation that for time if someone who's willing to exist the time to understand it they would be able to compete and run things so it's a it's a balance between simplicity and reality and I don't think it's as simple as just make it click and you're done and hope everything runs that's the experience you should expect from a cell phone application for voting that's the experience you should expect for running a normal wallet that is not the experience you should expect for power users in a system like developers asset issuers your state pool operators those are the special special people transaction fees after Shelly has launched hey hello guys one will Shelly be active and running how much will it cost per one transaction love this project card on will hopefully unite to plan it a little more I hope so to the woken God okay so this is another one of those things where we can do better so basically what you do is you set some sort of transaction cost in Daedalus and other wallets and you say okay pool operators should accept this and by default they'll accept the minimum value and then over time you can lower that minimum values ada appreciates in price but it would be nice to have an elastic system it'd be nice to have a system where ADA is somewhat aware of its own price and then it can consistently keep the transaction fees at a fairly low level depending upon how the network is being used and also capacity of the network so if the network is underutilized fees will go down if the network is over utilized fees dynamically go up and this is done somehow automatically or through a market-driven mechanism it's a great area of research and it's something that we really wanted to look into and spend some time with but we never got around to it because there was just so many other things to think about so in the next contract beyond 2020 we'd love to actually write several papers on this topic and come up with a much better way of doing it in the meantime we'll set the initial parameter and then with Voltaire the parameter can be user updatable meaning that it can be updated through the update system and then what happens is regularly the network can vote on raising or lowering transaction fees much the Federal Reserve votes on raising interest rates and lowering interest rates and these types of things it's just a little bit more user dynamicism so that's probably a nice intermediate step okay let's see what else we have here help please dental at wallet sync Dedalus wallet sync issue on OS X yes we've gotten numerous reports that some people are having some issue were sink is taking not only a long time but a lot of CPU utilization on certain versions of OS X this is a known issue and the developers are investigating it will probably kick it out with the next cut a release of Daedalus or the following release of Daedalus it's a not a universal issue on OS X but it is something that we see it was surprising to see it because the developers use OS X mostly for their development environment so Isis so usually that's the platform has the least bugs because they're the most noticed and we're not sure why that's been creeping up but we'll have a solution for it soon and it's a mild inconvenience but it's nothing significant when you see heavy CPU utilization with this new code almost always that's because we're over logging or we're having some sort of conflict with the operating system where the program is doing something that's causing the OS to work harder than necessary and generally speaking just simple things can correct that so that's a one or two week development cycle not always but that's what we've noticed going through the Biran reboot code it's very easy to debug it very easy to fix these things first Shelley block video and article no we have not had the first Shelley block we've had the first self note Shelley block for Haskell and what's nice is that's rapidly turning into the friends and family test net which will be the first friends and family Shelley block and that'll rapidly turn into the first Shelley block on the test net for everybody for for stick pool operators and power users so people are comfortable with the command line and of course that block is not connected to the Biron history it's just strictly Shelley and the point is to get everything set up but you can get people used to the software when the balance check happens you could argue that that is probably the first Shelley ish block because that's the unbroken history since September of 2017 all the way through to whenever we launch the balance check and really the difference between the balance check test net and the main net will be very small there'll be a few things here and there and it just gives us a chance to do some final editing changes to make sure that everything's looking right so we're not quite at the first Shelley block but what we're getting to a point where that's a reality and it's a certainty and it's gonna happen very soon soon as in soon not six months from now but much much sooner than that and if anybody says otherwise you just tell them to go pound sand you really do I'm getting real tired of these trolls I mean honestly it's it's just old fun get a life grow up honestly grow up you're gonna look so incredibly stupid when the Haskell test net launches and then shortly thereafter the balance check launches and then Shelly launches I mean it what and then of course the dialogue will change well well we're the real life use cases just grow up find some other project to go and troll you're nobodies so I I don't worry about that all right let's take a look here of course we have the obligatory card on Oh on coinbase question guys are pretty excited about that I would be too we love exchanges we love liquidity by Nance is currently right in the middle of a big upgrade they're updating the buyer and reboot and they're a lot of fun going through the documentation and learning how to use that and it's been very educational for us because any holes or deficiencies in the documentation they're of course gonna remind us that those are deficiencies so we can fix them for future people so we're quite happy with how that's coming along and it's trailblazing for all exchanges basically a much better listing experience for everybody so I think that's a cool thing bullish versus bearish the CEOs approach well let's look at this one all they call me the hoskin Eider and they say the ripple CEOs Ned Flanders actually let's talk about how CEOs are supposed to behave especially if they want to be publicly traded companies so today something happened with with Elon Musk we don't know I looked at his Twitter feed and either Ellen's been drinking he's been taking some drugs or his Twitter feeds been hacked or he's just damn near lost it you generally as a CEO of a publicly-traded company who's led multiple publicly traded companies PayPal and Tesla you don't tweet that your stock is overpriced there's a firewall between the CEO and the markets of yours your shares and there's an expectation on both legal and social by the regulator's of every regulated market that's credible that CEOs are supposed to behave in a certain way and they are supposed to be very careful with the statements that they make now there's a big spectrum of flexibility there are you many cases have super conservative CEOs who are super careful with what they say the Bob iger's of the world or Tim Cook's they're not really going to go out there and say crazy [ __ ] and then on the other side of the spectrum you have the eland mas some cases the jack Welsh's you you have these CEOs who are or Mark Cuban we're very vocal and they just have strong opinions about things that they share and I'd like to consider myself on that set as well I say things from my stuff from my heart I just I just say hey guys I'm going with my gut on this one or this is what I believe and feel and I don't go through a marketing department I don't go through a communications department I know a lot of fortune 500 CEOs and generally speaking how they make statements is on social media in particular they don't even write their own tweets they don't write any of their external communications basically first generally it's some third party that writes everything and many kiss CEO doesn't even see it he just basically gives consent to his chief of staff or executive assistant or somebody who knows them pretty well we'll review those statements and say yeah they look in line with our philosophy just send them out so when you see a tweet or something from a CEO it's been sanitized to a point where it's it's it's asinine and even when a CEO does do something generally what they do is when they do it they write it and they send it to their PR people their brand people their external people they read it clean it up then they focus group it will this piss off this interest group will Aborigines with with this political ideology and and this sexual preference get angry at us if we say this I mean this is how crazy it gets is it PCs and they sometimes argue for hours over the meaning of a particular word or how a sentence will read or something like that it's it's just it's extraordinary when you actually see this machinery up close and you see how it works and how people do these jobs so those CEOs do this because they don't want to be seen as influencing the stock price they don't want to create a controversy at the end of the day the story should be about the company its goals its vision the products the things that's doing generally speaking especially with custodial ceos the story's not about the leader it's not about the CEO if the story's about the CEO Tim Cook is doing his job poorly now the founder CEO and the more aggressive CEOs sometimes the story being about the CEO is actually quite advantageous to the company because people invest in the company or they buy the products of the company because they actually identify with the culture philosophy and vision of the particularly dur of the firm so this is where sanitizing is problematic because the minute you try to corporatize that person you're effectively killing the reason why people identify with that brand frankly this is what made Apple Steve Jobs was a master storyteller and what he did is he created a culture around Apple and said hey Apple if you buy an Apple product you're this kind of person you agree with these types of things you basically think different it was their tagline for a long time it would have been unimaginable to put Steve Jobs at that point in a suit and forced him to start speaking in corporate Devil's speak and never commit to everything and just be vacuous and hollow everything that was Apple would die and be lost in people's it's not our company anymore and then suddenly the company would make no money why because they could no longer charge a 30 to 40 percent premium on the hardware that's identical to the hardware of their competitors but it's just in a pretty box with a nice culture on it it's the same for designer brands if you look at Armani or any of these other extremely expensive brands that they carry with them unique cultures envision a viewpoint and you can't just simply sanitize that because the very fact that it's unsanitized and real and legitimate is what gives that brand value the danger of this though is that you live and die by the quality of the CEO and you live and die by whether you're CEO or whoever you built this brand around stays a credible actor for example Papa John's Pizza he's the founder of Papa John's the face of Papa John's apparently ran into some issues and the company kicked him out and now they're in this weird situation where the guy that basically created the company was the face of the company is gone and they have to completely rebrand themselves to completely rebuild them so the Papa John's is God to a lesser extent McAfee Antivirus they have a situation where the actual McAfee has behaved in ways that some people would consider it to be a madman and certainly it's created a lot of chaos and so when you carry the name of your founder your founders gone off the deep end or these people have perceived that then it creates a little bit of concern of whether it actually helps or hinders the company's mission and its ability to execute so even musk recently said a lot of crazy tweets I hope that his account was hacked if not it's it's pretty clear that musk is having a very serious time his child is just about to be born he's going through a very stressful period human beings are about to be launched into space for the first time in nine years on an American rocket that his company is built I can't imagine the level of stress that this guy is under especially given that all of his production capacities grinded to a halt as a consequence of a quarantine that he feels is fascist so even if he hasn't gone crazy the stress certainly is impacting his judgment and just a simple tweet of saying the stock is overvalued has Tesla stock I think collapsed 10% just on that that movement so this is a problem but at the end of the day I think it's we've live in an age where it's becoming less about what you say and more about your character and what you do and how you act would you rather a CEO always behave perfectly say the perfect things and then on the on the back end insider trading whatever he or she knows that the stock is not going to behave or basically try to sell you products that they know are defective or harmful and the reality is that for fortune 1000 companies that's all too common we have a lot of Elizabeth Holmes out there we and just the ones we found are pretty concerning and we we all pretend like that was the exception to the rule but frankly there's a lot of predatory culture in many boardrooms across the United States in my view it's much more important to have a CEO who doesn't always say the right thing but their heart is in the right place and you have a personal relationship with them in that their word is their bond and they know what the hell they're doing and you understand that there are calm leader who can navigate rough waters I often say to my people that at the end of day CEO only has three responsibilities in a company the first responsibility is sustainable revenue Oh stock markets don't reward that yeah many cases CEOs have to make a decision do I do something now that will flatline our revenue but long-term make us very competitive in five or ten years or do I do something now that will spike my revenue but burn the company out or not make us competitive in five 10 years but then again Wall Street will reward me for great quarterly profits so I'll be punished for doing the right thing but then I'll be rewarded for doing a perverse thing that's a bad incentive so a lot of CEOs they just simply don't behave appropriately so sustainable revenue is the first duty it's the single most important duty because if you don't do it the company eventually goes under second dealing with existential risk so there's plenty of risk in a company there's plenty of people wake up every day dealing with it when you call in the CEO greatest movie example of this would be margin call where they these traders discover that 2008 it's gonna happen the whole markets are gonna collapse once people confirm that this is indeed going to happen the first person they calls the CEO he flies in on a helicopter and says okay what's going on and then they all come up with a plan in a few hours to save the company that's an existential risk and there's many of them and CEOs are always brought in to deal with that and most CEOs who are good do those first two things well and we reward them accordingly the third thing is the Walt Disney effect and people always get this one wrong picking a proper successor every CEO has a duty to make sure that they have somebody around that if they get hit by a bus or decide they just don't want to do the job anymore can take over for them and run the company as well or better than they could and carry on the vision of the organization Disney did not do this and to a lesser extent Bill Gates did not do this this is why Microsoft entered the Ballmer era Ballmer was just a proxy of gates and allowed him to enable his wildest fantasies while he ran off trying to save the world meanwhile Microsoft year-by-year lost his dominance and competitiveness to an extent where the shareholders revolted fired both gates in Bulmer and brought in Sasha Nadella it was a really tragic thing for him but it was necessary for the company and Nadella had to write the entire show so the three things a CEO has to do and they have to do that in a regulated environment more often than not they have to do that where every word they say is going to be judged and monitored and then they have to do that within the brand reality of the company and they have to do that with varying degrees mandates and power some CEOs are incredibly powerful like Mark Zuckerberg other CEOs are not so powerful the CEO of HP they have power but there's certainly a strong board and there are certainly activist shareholders and there's a lot of institutional momentum in various ways so you come in as a custodian and your goal is to like do no harm and manage the ship as well as you can but you don't really have a lot of opportunity to carve your own name and initials into the system so you have more freedom to say things and the reality is that the guys at ripple they don't have as much freedom as I do getting to the point of this question I am the guy had input/output for better for worse and I'm accountable to basically the success of this project and I have a personal relationship with my community and they sometimes give me a lot of slack and to hang myself a lot of rope to either hang myself or climb about with and some days I do put my foot in my mouth but I'd like to believe that we all know that we're on the same side here when you come in as the CEO of ripple especially at this stage in the company's evolution the reality is ripple has two things that they're attempting to do one make sure X RP is not a security and stabilize their business model to conduct an IPO if the CEO accomplishes that he's gonna be lavishly rewarded tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars over the next five years I get to be on the front cover of Forbes gets all the accolades and that's the definition of a success there it is not to be a crypto evangelist it's not to go on reddit or make these amaze and and tell people how we're gonna go change the world I'm a founder CEO I started this company on a vision I started this project on a vision I'm gonna keep doing this whether I'm rich or poor I've spent all my money and we still haven't achieved the vision I said I'll just keep doing it because this is how I'd like to spend my life I didn't sign up to go have a really nice job make a lot of money and then go retire and then have grandkids sit on my lap and talk about how rich granddad is and pay to get my kids in the Harvard I signed up to build stuff and change things and make things better it makes things beautiful I signed up as I've seen a lot of horrible things in the world I bend over 52 countries and some really bad ones like Sierra Leone where the people are great but the government sucks and they're laden with war and chaos in some cases even a bola not a good situation and I've seen the best in people I've seen forgiveness you wouldn't imagine in Rwanda I saw Tutsi and a Hutu person who ate lunch together every day who worked at the genocide museum and the Hutu person killed the Tutsis person's family I can't imagine eating lunch with someone that killed my family but do that and call that person at least an acquaintance and understand them and where they came from in just 20 years I've seen these things with my own eyes and I say the world deserves better systems the world deserves to be better so this is why we don't run a company like ripple and this is why I do the things I do on a Friday night go out live with you guys on YouTube and have a conversation with you for better or for worse and y'all rip me in we have a great conversation of times it was productive sometimes it's not I'm not going away I'm gonna keep being here keep doing this as long as I have a stage to stand on I'll keep telling you the merits of what we do and if we get it right we changed the world if we don't get it right we inspire somebody in our community to do it again and change the world a great example of that would be 1964 with the Barry Goldwater campaign in the United States many of you will not even know who Barry Goldwater was he ran for president and won the Republican nomination in 1964 and ran against Lyndon Baines Johnson and what he's usually known for in politics is being crushed in a landslide against Lyndon Baines Johnson people thought he was a bit of a crazy person but he inspired at least one person during his run to really take politics so seriously that that person went on to be governor of California and then that person went on to become the president of the United States that was Ronald Reagan so the point of movements in philosophy is that the definition of success is to keep the torch lint the idea alive to keep the momentum going the mission going as Martin Luther King then the journey to the promised land I might not get there with you but we as a people will get there and similarly we as a movement will get there and at the end of the day because our goals are pure and our vision is pure and where we'd like to go is pure we'll get there because who can debate with this and fight with us is it a bad idea to give each person in the world more control over their money their financial freedom to make sure that they can't become victims of waste fraud and abuse corruption governments unlawful government seizing of their assets is it debatable that people should have the the certainty that when they vote they know that their vote was properly recorded and there won't be retribution against them for voting the wrong way against a particular political party and to know that they will always have the right to vote is it so wrong to know that when you own something that your property rights are going to be protected and they're transnational and even if your country falls into a civil war at least the world knows who really owns something is it so wrong to ask that you're treated with transparency and honesty in your commercial dealings these of course are undebatable principles in the point of our industry is creating tools to make these things and more things better for everybody and we live in an age now where in the United States military drones are being used to tell people to go back into their homes for quarantine governors have completely suspended the US Constitution for our safety we haven't seen something like this since the Civil War in 1861 it's an unprecedented time and we tend to wonder when there's not a lot of focus on the facts and circumstances of what led us into this if it will ever actually completely end or if these enumerated powers that have been expanded dramatically in the last few weeks will start sticking around longer than they should Vladimir Lenin had a great saying sometimes decades go by and very little things happen and sometimes in weeks decades of stuff happens to paraphrase them and he's absolutely right for a long time in it since September 11th America was on kind of a direction in the world was in kind of a direction but there was pushback and people got comfortable with the flow and in just a few short months everything about our relationship with our government our relationship with each other our relationship with markets how free markets should work but who should get to decide they've all been called into question and we've seen a hyper centralization of power off of the excuse that it's saving lives and of course what happens if we don't have a vaccine very high probability of that if the virus continues to mutate there's already 30 different strains of coronavirus so if we can't get an effective vaccine does that mean this is now an indefinite reality that we all live in saying that we're here to save lives for your protection so the point of the tools that we construct as an industry is that they are the antidote to tyranny because if the argument is that we want to save lives we now have a way of doing that without requiring hyper centralization of power around politicians in many cases who don't even follow the rules that they enforce for example the governor of Illinois wants to vote his whole state in a lockdown and tell everybody they have to shelter in place but his wife can go to the beach and go travel to Florida and have fun and when you question him about it he says how dare you bring my family into this it's very simple matter the rules don't apply to the people who rule us some people are more equal than others and that's always been true throughout all of human history so that's what our movement is about and that's what I do as a CEO is that ie from the bully pulpit and from the product line every single day go and remind people that the products that we build as a company the things we think about as a company are all about philosophy and ultimately are all about building new tools for the 21st century to better manage people throughout the years that come ripples not that kind company they don't have that philosophy they don't think this way their goal is to build the internet of value and their goal is to make the existing system far more efficient and to create a better product for people like banks and governments and enterprise actors and yes this will Canary a lot of consumer benefit but at the end of the day if a regulator comes in and tells them to substantially change the soul of their protocol in product they'll just simply do it if a regulator comes in and tells us to substantially change the soul of what we're building I will resign as CEO I input output and alert everybody and warn everybody that this mandate has been given to us and hopefully we can find a way that somebody in a different jurisdiction can continue the work there's just simply things I'm just not going to do and I really don't care about money I've been rich and poor it doesn't matter to me what matters to me is is the things that we do so yeah Chile's [ __ ] no worries shelling incoming thanks for the question there crypto days that was a good one but actually I the ripple guys I think they sometimes do very questionable things like put been lost key on their board but I like David Schwartz and I've liked Evan Thomas and all the other guys in or let your standard it's a good thing and they write good code and they have good technology and and I love that they try to open-source and share things where I'm where possible frankly when you understand that our differences our values as opposed to differences of personality or character then it's much easier to collaborate with them and others like that wearing what it makes sense but you never compromise your values because once you do that you lose everything there's no point to follow this isn't it a funny thing that we went from nothing with Bitcoin January 3rd of 2009 nobody cared about us nothing there's literally just a single person and we grew to a colossal movement where a guy mongolia who raises camels can own bitcoin and that was all done based upon on principles and values and now we have people entering our industry saying yeah well that worked then but it's not going to work anymore you have to now completely cave in and say yes sir to the man it's it's patronizing it's an amazing statement and everybody who carries that opinion they just don't get who we are and why we're here this is about the people that come after us not us I see this question a lot lost spending password or when the wallet migration comes by what happens with that spending password so spending passwords basically an encryption of your private keys of your cryptographic assets in the wallet so that's a local thing it has nothing to do with your wallet recovery phrase so when you recover a wallet you recover the wallet naked no encryption is recovered with that now when you add a spending password your rien crypting the private key the point of a spending password is it protects you against a multi-user computer attack so you have a laptop you have a roommate you leave your laptop on and then somebody turned your laptop on maybe the roommates friend or whatever I and because it's an unshielded wallet they can just spend it right there and I actually witnessed this happen during the founding of aetherium in January of 2014 it's a great story I was staying at a beach house with a bunch of other people and we had one guy who was creating ATMs at the time and he had a Bitcoin wallet and he had several Bitcoin in it and it was either an exchanged wallet or a local wallet I can't remember which one and he fell asleep and that morning after when we woke up one of the people came to me and told me that he had basically turned his laptop on and used his wallet and sent several Bitcoin out of it so basically we had a mystery ax whodunit and so I sat down with everybody and we kind of traced out who'd been in the how we created a time line and we were deductively able to actually break it down to two candidates and one was preposterous and so the other one happened to be a friend of this guy's who was just staying there for the night and it turned out it was him so so I never found out if he ever got his Bitcoin back or not but at least we do disguise to discover who it was point is if he had a spending password that wouldn't have happened because even if the person could have broken into the wallet when they tried to initiate the transaction they couldn't decrypt the private key to spend the funds that's the point of spending passwords as they protect you against that particular type of attack now people get confused because they say well hang on a second people can see the balance so that must mean it's not secure no just means that the public side is transparent but they actually spend the balance the key is inaccessible as long as the spending password is reasonably strong and the standards we have for Dedalus I think it's ten characters with a mixture of things so it's a reasonably strong password however that spending password does not follow the recovery process is when you recover you're rebuilding all of the credentials from ground up so they come out naked you have to put clothes on them you have to put a spending password on them all right let's take some of your questions we have in the live stream okay seems a part up was a great hire things seem more mature now and organized now absolutely I love a partner one of the privileges of working in Iowa each case we have really strong female leadership I felt that was really important not to be patronizing or a quota guy or any of these SJW idiots but the reality is that if you're gonna build something for everybody you need to hire everybody you can't just hire one type of person and expect them be able to figure out how the world works and different people have different core competencies and you can't take a bunch of hyper-masculine academic dudes and put them in a room and expect them to build a great product it gets a little crazy this thinking gets a little biased you get a little groupthink II and you just start trying to solve every problem one particular way so you invite diversity in your organization and by doing that you start looking at things in very different ways very creative ways and diversities along many axes there's cultural linguistic there are so many languages that are spoken on which K we have people from 20 different countries so they look at things from their own local localities when we talk about problems of Africa it's not Charles Hoskins and the white guy born in Hawaii that's thinking about the problems of ethiopia ethiopian programmers that we trained in Addis Ababa who lived there their entire life or in there speak all the local languages who are basically giving us domain expertise why these problems exist in the cultural realities behind them similarly along gender lines it's a preposterous assumption that we're going to rebuild the world social operating system financial operating system and exclude women from that it's a crazy idea you need to have you need to have some representation on all sides and what you do is you look for great leaders the reality is if you want to hire a great woman you'll find one if you're looking you'll find one who is incredibly qualified and can bring elements and dynamicism to the organization that just aren't there otherwise and I am so incredibly lucky to have great leaders like Tamara and Aparna in my organization and they hold their own against some of these incredibly bright very opinionated engineers so it really shows and it's a very different organization today than it was even six months ago as a consequence of their contributions so thank them so much and I really enjoy having them around pool operators are unable to make critical business decisions without knowing what pledge is or how it works well the mechanics the play should be apparent during the Haskell test night yes that's actually one of the points of both the friends and family test net and the point of the first task old testament is to lock those types of things down and have the definitive conversation on not only pledge but the K parameter and other things in the system you'll notice that one of the guys who made a video about pledges Rick he's one of the pioneers so he's been invited to the friends and family test that and he's your mole on the inside that will definitely provide ample information in opinion about these things and there's going to be a definitely need to be pushed back there and I've instructed all of the engineers to take the concerns of the community as first-class citizens so even if we have our own ideas we have to look at the community idea as an equal value to our own ideas and eventually a decision will be made so how we will communicate that where we're at is first on a card no effect episode with Philip Conte Kevin Hammond and Duncan coming in and explaining what is the K parameter in what an excuse me what is the pledge parameter and what did we learn from the incentivize test meant in our conversations with the friends and family test net and where we're going with the Shelby Haskell test net and then the final decision will be made before the balance check of how to set those parameters not everybody's gonna be happy about it somebody's gonna have a strong opinion about it and you're just one of those least worst things that you have to go with you have to pick something that's best for the majority of people and that we think will lead to a stable system the good news is it can be changed can be changed through the same thing that can change the transaction fees the K parameter or other parameters in the system Voltaire so if we get it wrong you won't have to live with it forever but you have to start somewhere and wherever you start scan' piss somebody off the same with the tokens supply people often ask where 245 billion come from with a number and there are some mechanics behind it but there's no empirical super-awesome economic model behind this many anymore there's any model behind how many Bitcoin there are you pick something at the end of the day and you live with it and then people accept it understand it and then build that around their understanding of the system and then markets do the rest but it's impossible to argue that 44 billion would have been better than 46 billion you just can't these are numbers and you can even move disabled points we have six after the decimal zeroes where's Bitcoin has 8 so Bitcoin looks smaller but to a certain respect it's just because of where we've put the decimal point a little bit more when you actually correct that so it's just it's one of those things hmm once the D parameter goes to zero is the network or hundred percent decentralized controller are can I which K or another actor jump in and change once it hits zero we're gonna wreck the ability to modify it at that point so the short term well we'll just erase the keys that give us the ability to update that if we can and in the longer term that parameter will entirely be removed with a hard fork so there's no intention once we hit zero to ever again reinstall the training wheels once your kid knows how to ride a bicycle you just have to accept they're gonna fall off the bicycle and scrape their elbow but that's no excuse for putting the training wheels back on after they do it you all have to just accept it so I think this is the most reasonable way to go from a static and federated system to a dynamic and decentralized system but at some point you all have to learn how to fly and you're all you're gonna fly pretty fast even if you fall out of the tree a few times Charles how is card out a more decentralized than Bitcoin how is that possible the Bitcoin people are some of the worst in understanding the concepts decentralisation sometimes they get philosophy pretty right and they certainly have principles but we actually want to have a reasonable realistic fact-based conversation about decentralisation they have none of it so you can look at parameters the amount of full nodes in the system yeah that's like your ability to regenerate the system in the event that the system is in some way hit or compromised it also reinforces of core principle of crypto currencies which is inclusive accountability basically we all check each other's work ok so that's the concept of these validators they look at things they validate things we know the system is right then there's consensus participation and that's basically who gets to update the system so whole point of these systems is you do transactions and as you do transactions they all get collected in a pending some cloud out in the sky pending your mempool they're just sitting there and you got a process them update the system well somebody has to do that now you can have a static and federated system where the same people over and over do that or you can have a dynamic system where different people do that and a decentralized system or different people do that and it's unpredictable who those people are now Bitcoin you don't have a lot of unpredictability they're the same miners tend to win again and again because they're professional operations and there's only a small collection of pools I've seen some people cite less than ten major operations control more than 50% of the system so you do have a dynamic system where you certainly could have new actors come and go there's no restriction hard restriction on it but it's not quite decentralized as federated okay so it's dynamic but federated whereas what we're doing is we're going to a completely decentralized system and there's already a good indication there's going to be hundreds of distinct actors in the beginning who are making blocks so I think we have somewhere like nineteen thousand nodes in the Jormungandr which are all by definition full notes because they carry the whole thing so if we move those over we're actually having a pretty high note count and we're gonna have many more consensus notes by a factor of ten to a hundred over Bitcoin at the beginning and our system does not slow down or lose performance appreciably if we were to increase that parameter substantively so it's foreseeable and future versions of our Boris as Cardinal grows to have ten thousand or a hundred thousand state pools given updates than ever the way we do networking and a few protocol parameters but these are inevitabilities they will eventually happen and we can force that along with parameterizations and competition and Geographic drift of ADA will create that because people will tend delegate to people in their backyard and so African holders will donate will delegate to African pools and so forth it's just because they know these people they have business relationships with them or perhaps there's legal requirements whatever have you so over time a system gets more decentralized so we win the validation set because it's going to be easier and easier on our side the way we design things to run a full node eventually with feature technology much easier than anything Bitcoin could ever do with their snail-paced development and we are already out of the gate a crushed Bitcoin in terms of the amount of consensus participants and so we're much more decentralized in that respect finally you have concept of code participation the whole notion of a Treasury is you create a much more egalitarian decentralized and fair participation process for the direction of the system then a beneficent merida croc meritocratic system where you have core developers and it's not clear who gets to be one i it's very difficult to participate there I'm not allowed to a lot of people aren't and they say oh yeah sure write a bunch of code it's like okay I can spend two years of my life begging and pleading and then I can be welcomed as one of the lesser vassals of this the system so no it's not to set realized at all of course I'll be burned at the stake by the Bitcoin wizards and these other people now say Charles is lying to you well guys that ship is sale you have your opinion I have my opinion we're just gonna at this point agree to disagree so I think very firmly that we are much more to centralize and there is very empirical ways you can look at this from the amount of validating nodes to the amount of consensus participants to how you handle source management and decisions the fork and we have tools for all of those things well many other crypto projects be able to build on top kernels blockchain that is the hope with blues what's up mister Hoskinson and as much who controls the private keys of the Treasury wallet what checks and balances there there's so the basic idea of the long-term Treasury wallet is it's controlled by the blockchain itself meaning that funds are basically managed by some mechanism where no party controls private keys you basically build the spending predicate from an action of a vote now as we add voltaren to the system post-2020 it is a prerequisite that a hundred percent the value management has to be done by the chain itself and it can be built as a dao or it can be built directly into the ledger rules there's a litany of approaches that we could have and will err on the side of correctness but at the same time will err on the side of fastest to market so that we can get this system out there because you can always change it after you have it especially once you have a functioning voting system and i think you guys are gonna be very pleasantly surprised with our progress on Volterra no one believes me because guys are [ __ ] some of you but we actually I'm not making it up we are we are making blinding progress on this project and just because it's at the linear end of the map what happens if we put them together in a circle then Voltaire touches Byron they're right next to each other right so look at things differently think of things differently you can work in things in parallel nothing happens linearly with these types of projects so I think you're all going to be surprised with what we have and that's going to decentralize very very rapidly for the greater good of the community because it's a economic necessity for long-term participation and not all of you are [ __ ] just some of you ADA just goes down though as funny it's we go up 45 percent in a month and it goes down [ __ ] you come on you idiot this is the greatest part about these these profiteering kids they never understand why we're here what we're doing and then when you get a good news and we're actually performing well if we D correlate from pesos and Bitcoin that's ignored and then we have a little bit of pullback because people sell off guys there are great people collect statistics of how many addresses are in the money and how many dresses are out of the money so currently more than 55 percent of the addresses in the network are out of the money meaning that they're in the red and 55% 45% I believe we're in the money there's about 350,000 unique data addresses if you actually do the analytics and look at it so that means that as we go up some of those people that were in the red have returned to the green because they're now in the green will divest because they want to exit the position because they've had as historic loser and they want to rebalance their portfolios so you creates resistance levels at every single price point so when you go up it gets pushed back down every cryptocurrency suffers from this and people measure this as part of their trading models you can filled unlimited levels of sophistication if you want to to basically predict these types of things so it's like if your goal is just when is it gonna go up five cents or ten cents get out of this space this is not for you this is the time for that is over everybody got lucky got lucky and now we're in the fundamentals side of things are you doing real life stuff are you actually pursuing things that produce real value for people are your networks actually useful and they have a credible argument why they're going to be around in five years or ten years those things matter and then the users will come millions of transactions eventually billions of transactions will be held on these systems and they will change the lives of and eventually billions of people that's why we're here now any system that does this has network value the very fact that you brought a million people together or a billion people together look how valuable Facebook is you can extract value through all kinds of ways and that will be reflected in the markets but that's a secondary effect as a consequence of utility not a primary effect as a consequence of your moonboy idiocy so so don't don't don't say things like that it just shows how ignorant you are about what these things are you're a whole lot of talk buddy you are to tell me what you've built anything you're the guy listening to me at 10:30 at night on a Friday you must have a really exciting life I should gather and how does your brother and dad doing they're doing great they're doing great luckiiy Gillette Wyoming hasn't been hit very hard by kovat what's really crazy is that they told hospitals to stop doing elective procedures and this is having serious medical consequences it's bankrupting hospitals it's bankrupting private physicians and actually it's creating death because people are foregoing necessary medical treatment either because they've been told to or that they just have fear of going to the hospital for a variety of reasons because they think that they'll catch a nosocomial infection so we're starting to see people die of heart attacks and brain tumors and other things it's a consequence of this lockdown it's definitely not a black-and-white thing of have a lockdown you save a lot of lives by locking things down and shutting the medical system down for these elective procedures many cases aren't even elective you're really hurting people and creating a lot of physical pain and it's set as physicians to see that that's really sad my Scottish Islanders say hi to your farm hell yeah man and I love Highlander now I'm gonna get some this year Stefan wolf is asking questions you guys should be demanding alright I'll buy it what is he asking where was he in the chat he's asking why you're even here oh come on you don't even have anything how easy will it be to make an improvement proposal what if I make a contract this is ayah which K must do X Y Z and it wins ha you can't compel me to do something I have to be consent I have to consent to that as for your pretty vulgar I tend to believe what Dan Larimer said about you morally and also understand why you were booted out of etherium ok great he's the guy raised four billion dollars got fined by the SEC and says he has no moral or fiduciary obligations and currently is the subject of a class-action lawsuit but hey you're the you're the troll on the internet who believes everything you read I pity you alright let's see here yeah it's going to be very easy to write an improvement proposal in principle and actually see IP one is how to write an improvement proposal and talking a Fredrik in the Cardinal foundation it looks like their first work product is going to be May so sometime this month they should have announcement about that and basically they're going to show you a skeleton of what a CIP should look and that's a version 1 and the first CIP will probably be to modify the first CIP so there'll be a recursive thing that happens for a while until we get that process right but in the end of the day it's really a matter of how hard should it be to capture what you'd like to do versus capture what has to be reflected in the formal specification and there's a huge gap there and that's a discussion that we've been certainly having Charles asked how do you get mom and pops to using crypto there's certainly a good argument to be made that Krypton won't be what we think because the non tech people don't get it if they have to get it you've already lost how much do you actually legitimately understand about how your cellphone works so just be honest like really think about it do you really know how that works it is probably the single most complicated piece of machinery the humankind has ever constructed it's cause so much stuff in it they're putting lidar in these damn things you have AI chips you have like tons of cameras you have radar modules in some cases you have gyroscopes you have the special glass on the screen that's treated with with a special chemical so it doesn't shatter when you drop it you have a multi-touch display that has such sensitivity you have an ultrasonic fingerprint reader underneath the screen okay each of these things are like dozens of PhD dissertations worth of original science that was done over 50 years realized by tens of billions of dollars of research and development by literally millions of engineers over the last ten years okay and this is old the next generations already others it as ten I think yes twenty is already out right and the next thing is going to come out soon with Apple so the point of consumer products is that that complexity that is hidden and it's transformed into magic there's no pulleys and switches and levers it's just some sort of rectangular slate and I put my fingers on it and it does something if you achieve that you create something that changes the world that makes it worth billions of dollars so you ask how do we get the mainstream people into the ecosystem by solving problems they have and I'll give you a very specific problem that if we had solve this would make this lockdown issue very hard in America a very easy in America it's really a hard situation so here's the problem if you're a governor of a state in the United States you at some point have to make a decision to open your state and let people get back to work now the political insanity that's been set up right now is the minute the you do that you are automatically blamed for every single person who dies of coronavirus there after you've opened up the lockdown because somebody on the other side of the political argument gets to say to you the governor that person wouldn't have died if you kept that lockdown running now we have no evidence of that we just don't know but yet you're blamed for so you at some point have to have enough political courage to pull that lever accepting that you're going to be blamed for thousands if not tens of thousands of deaths that occur after you pull that lever that probably would have happened to otherwise but you're just going to be blamed for it and this is a nationwide phenomenon so the incentive is not to open what does it mean it means that you are basically implicitly pulling the other lever to cause agony 230 million Americans and throw them into homelessness wouldn't it be nice if we had an Evo ting system where you could directly ask the American people do you want to open or not the whole nation and under what conditions will be open and it allow a supermajority to decide that once 66 percent of the American people do it we're done and worryfree open the decisions been made the governor's the president will follow that because this is something that's unprecedented and if we're suspending the whole US Constitution for it might as well do it if we had a block chain based voting system this would be super cheap and easy to do and you would have confidence in it do you have to know anything about tokens wallets all that stuff no the cell phone complexity that is hidden from you the consumer all is it works it's credible it's there it's awesome and the very fact that that system is being used creates Network value for the cryptocurrency the blockchain that's holding that infrastructure and intermediaries are there to simplify that process and those intermediaries create on ramps and off ramps and they make it basically easy to use but yet you still get certainty that the system was operating correctly because you can independently verify outside of those intermediaries that your vote was recorded and it's what you thought it was so you can create separation of concerns that's one example of literally millions you could come up with across every single business vertical whether it be product authentication another great example that is why I love the New Balance deals so these are paintings behind me how do we know they're real or not are they replicas are they genuine paintings all these types of things so generally cater come in same for those masks behind there especially rarer ones that are very very specific somebody will say this is real or no it's not and they put their brand and reputation on that well how do we know that works that's a very expensive thing and there's like all kinds of bizarre market dynamics that form the same for luxury goods Christian's your purses Rolex watches whatever your fancy happens to be year can I have a situation where basically you have something that costs a $30,000 watch and if you happen to look the wrong way wear the wrong clothes wrong ethnicity people won't even believe it's real even though it is how terrible is that you spend $30,000 for something because you're wearing sweat pants or you're in the wrong area to town people just assume you're wearing a fake and it's an Invicta watch not a submariner was asserted dial or something like that so then you say hey wouldn't it be so cool to have a cell phone app I can just tap my phone on that watch those shoes those paintings whatever and it'll tell you if it's real or not that simple you use a blockchain for that and there's all kinds of cool stuff in fact we just finalized the donation today to University of Wyoming for that 1.3 million dollar lab half million from us and ended up being five hundred five thousand dollars worth of ADA I and the state governments matching that and then the university's matching 300,000 so it's a 1.3 million dollar lab that we set up paid for with ADA first government institution in the world to accept data first University in the world to accept data and state of Wyoming is matching it so they're treating ADA as legal tender how about that and that lab one of the core research agendas of that lab and they're hiring tenure-track people to facilitate this is to build a chip for authentication now it's going to take a while to get that chip done but when that chips done it'll be dirt cheap to make it'll be secure and it can be used as part of the authentication process to embed in products luxury goods potentially if a bio capsule can be put on in cows and sheep it can be put in all kinds of different things and you as a consumer you don't have to know [ __ ] about crypto about blockchain about anything you just tap your phone and your phone tells you if it's real or not okay that's your consumer experience and then for the resale market the luxury goods manufacturers can get a secondary revenue stream for that all kinds of cool new business models that you can enable with this but that's the point that's the point it's you're asking the wrong question if saying does grandma have to understand it the answer is no nor more no more so than grandma understands the iPad or the I or the cell phone or the computer okay she'll never get it what you need to have is you need to have stuff that simple is easy to use it's concise and you just instantly get it and you get the value of it you understand why this transforms marketplaces it solves a real problem and it solves a problem that you can't solve as an individual company you have to solve through disintermediation the problem of authentication of a luxury good is a universal problem for all luxury brands not just one and if such a tool existed all luxury brands would adopt that as part of their brand protection portfolio because it makes no sense to reinvent the wheel this is why you need a blotch a because you have companies that are competitors that don't trust each other that don't want to hand the authentication of their product to their competitor and don't want to spend millions of dollars rebuilding the network effect of something so they would much rather work through a standards-based Federation blockchain there you go and a token yeah it's a regulating mechanism side the system to ensure that the system behaves properly and to finance the system's maintenance and the systems feature richness and so forth [Music] by the way have a rule here you cannot call him Chico call him molten tar monster number three we'll even develop a nice three-dimensional model and then we'll 3d print it at the lab at University of Wyoming because they have a maker lab actually University of Wyoming and will give out little molten tar monsters to people and they'll have number three on it that's just for him could you put it in a vaccine yeah you absolutely could that's actually what Bill Gates wants to do how do you avoid paying taxes yeah don't I have faith in only one agency of the US government to accurately and competently behave their duty and that is the IRS no other Department is going to do their job well but the IRS will they will find you yeah it's they they hired what was the Liam Neeson and from taken it's I don't know who you are but I've a very particular set of skills I will find you and find you and find you with interest in penalties the richer you get the more you develop an intimate relationship with the IRS they they know you're on a first-name basis I actually has an interesting case Justin Fujimoto the IRS except in Colorado weed money because they don't have bank accounts for wiring the IRS actually legally has to accept that it's literally printed on the money itself this is legitimate for all debts foreign and domestic so it's a Supreme Court case at some point if they don't accept it they don't like accepting it because it's just a logistical nightmare I there actually have been some back and forth about people have tried to do crazy things like pay their taxes with pennies because they just say [ __ ] the government and I'm gonna pay in pennies to make this as painful as possible but certainly if they have no ability to bank themselves it would be unreasonable for the IRS to say that they they could not do that Charles is that water running out here yes it is I have a hydroponic setup right there and I'm growing jalapeno peppers and chilies super hot chilies they're quite nice how was your meeting with general McChrystal I was gonna meet general McChrystal in DC and the day I was gonna meet him he had emergency surgery so I met some other people from the McChrystal group including a Major General and we took some cards and my chief of staff has been communicating with his chief of staff and at some point I might even set up a mentoring arrangement because they're really good leadership organization and McChrystal's are a really nice guy he's a smart dude and he's team of teams was a good book and really his whole thing is about how do you get organizations to work well together when you don't have explicit mandates or power so it's not so good for the leadership of AI which K there's some value that that could provide but it's much better when you're talking about that tripartite between a mergo CFM IO where we're all equal parties and we have to work together but not always do we work together as well as we should so it's super important that we find different structures to collaborate when Pao more horizontal than vertical and team of teams is a really good curriculum for that so I have a lot of respect for Stanley McChrystal and we were gonna meet up with him at some point and Cort Corona made that very difficult but I do generally talk to a lot of people in the defense complex and the intelligence complex from former people at various agencies to generals like McChrystal and others because a lot of them are now in private industry they work either in Consulting Group's or like Petraeus works for kleiner not kleiner perkins but a Kravis KKR these types of houses and so they have a lot of decision authority behind capital the deployment of capital and they're of course really concerned about where cryptocurrencies are going to go cryptocurrencies construct create a geopolitical reality that is very interesting to the defense industry where first they potentially have an impact on a fundamental tool of statecraft which is sanctions so that is always in the backdrop and then second they allow you to do things like create alternative views of the economy and so you can use them for collection of intelligence so there's definitely a component there that they're very interested in and then there's also a situation where they actually in some cases could potentially eventually define who gets to run the country for example if you move your census and identity system and voting system to a cryptocurrency based system well then we a small Wyoming company would could actually potentially have a huge impact on the elections of some foreign government so there's a Logan Act consideration there there's all kinds of craziness that could come up so we regularly talk to State Department other people just to make sure that everything is nicely balanced in the way we think and I'll see US government is a great resource about what's going on in countries and I encourage any person who's US citizen who is a US business owner who does business abroad to actually spend some time talking to the State Department in the country you're doing business in for example I had lunch with the ambassador of Mongolia I was meeting the president of Mongolia and we talked State Department we said hey can we talk to the Ambassador before we meet the why because I wanted to understand what was the u.s.

position on Mongolia and what did the US government know about Mongolia that could potentially be relevant lots of things because they kind of have an opinion on things like political stability whether a particular regime is long-lived or short-lived who is really the kingmaker in the country we spend billions of dollars literally to gather this information and the State Department usually is well more than willing to give you some ideas of people you shouldn't do business with or should do business with or the stability of affairs in that country or concerns like is there proper rule of law or there kangaroo courts or these types of things you see this is something that many entrepreneurs don't get especially in countries the United States is that while the government as a monolithic entity is many cases incompetent counterproductive fraud filled and wasteful there are still millions of people wake up every day write services which we pay for out of our wallet as tax payers from the Small Business Administration to things in the federal government the State Department and the people who work in those capacities as civil servants are well more capable having conversation with you on a regular basis retired or otherwise and in some cases is so easy to just pick up the phone column or send them an email take them to lunch and that some cases nobody talks to them and so they're well more than willing just to sit down and give you an exact exhaustive conversation about things that they've learned and remember if somebody spent 20 years of their life in some environment with the US flag behind them the most powerful government the world they're bound to be a pretty good domain expert and have a very nuanced very comprehensive fact driven view of that jurisdiction of the realities of doing business in that jurisdiction this is one of the reasons why we've been able to scale the 20 countries and navigate those and not run into a lot of little local problems is because we've been very systematic and careful about how we approach these governments how we talk to them and we also understand what the US position is so we kind of know where our flexibility can be and that respect Charles what was your impression about Georgia Tbilisi and people are ready for crypto absolutely I think George is ahead of the game Georgia has one of the most impressive governments I've ever interacted with absolutely ever interacted with they are incredibly efficient they're fast Ford seeking super easy to pay your taxes they only have three different types of taxes flat tax everything there runs very well the Tourism Minister before I left the country you called us repeatedly emailed us and she's we will do anything to have your conference here that they were just a great government to talk to and work with and everything is almost always digital we're doing academic credential project it's really easy to do because there's a central government repository of diplomas so it's just a matter of extracting them putting into a blockchain format from a central custodial set so there's there's a great foundation to build on there this farmer voucher program we're bidding on only 2% of the six million farmers that it's relevant for have cell phones 98% are not digitized and top-ranked very different reality you have to think really carefully like even if you want to give them 10 GM cards it's like how do you cost that $2 a card 12 million dollars just onboard them to a plastic card and that's not even gonna solve the problem they're sued there's enormous logistical issues and those types of deals so George is well ahead of the game and I wish America worked like Georgia in certain respects they they really thought through a few things and they care about taking their country into the 21st century then and there are some other things that are still regressive as with all countries nothing is perfect what about Armenia and Azerbaijan so the old joke in Georgia is that whatever Georgia has done our media invented first if you're Georgian you really understand that one there's a little bit of a rivalry between Armenia and Georgia Armenia is a beautiful country as well do you agree with Elon Musk's that the coronavirus is overblown should we be in lockdown I did a whole series of videos three of them on propaganda where I go into exhaustive detail on that topic and I'd highly encourage you to to look in that and we even have a doctor in the chat who's quite prominent the Cardinal community so succinctly as I've said repeatedly I feel that we should use a science in fact based approach to handling this crisis and all data are in evidence ours pointing in a trend in a direction that people who get this tend to be resilient to it and that the majority of people who get it have mild asymptomatic cases and that this only seems to be affecting certain subsets of the population which probably can be isolated and still safely allowing the rest of the people get back to work and this is based on data from Iceland the Netherlands New York City California all the places we looked at antibody tests and just common sense about how epidemiological models work and how virus has spread frankly the coordinated global lockdown was too hard so there were many cases where lockdown did not occur and yet despite that we're not really seeing a big difference between the lockdown on the unlock down places and what happens is that there's media manipulation with the numbers so for example they say Iowa is experiencing the fastest rate of increase is only better the last time I checked like 130 deaths in Iowa out of a three million person population from coronavirus and furthermore they're testing infrastructure was some of the worst in the nation and now they're finally getting it online so are we seeing a dramatic increase in cases because everybody and I was not in quarantine or are we seeing it because they're finally testing people for the first time and saying nothing about the nature of that case fatality rate I've seen a lot of reports where people are potentially reporting deaths as kovat there were other things because there's just a lot of pressure to do that or perhaps a financial incentive to do that a lot of this stuff is there's like monkey business all around it's going to ears to sort out all this monkey business but my opinion is that I really firmly believe we need to seriously start getting people back to work because the consequences of being locked down for too long means that we will have an equal or greater amount of death a substantially greater amount of human misery and potentially global instability in fact even nation states collapsing in of course that results in even more death that if we keep the lockdown going on too long you want an example of that look at Iraq what caused the rebellion was it hatred of America or the fact that we had a 30% unemployment rate in Iraq for a long time idle hands do the devil's work and that's the saying you got to remember all the way through and if you do something that creates suddenly 30 million unemployed people in your economy that's gonna be super problematic if that persists for a long period of time and those people aren't going to take it and there's just too much stuff going on to allow this to go on too long so segregate populations use a fact-based approach look to where the data takes you and frankly we are starting to get reasonable therapeutics from Reb des aveer to others so there's just no reason to continue doing this long term and it's not clear if a vaccine is gonna work there's already 30 different strains of coronavirus in the wild you ask your question why doesn't the flu virus go away if we can make vaccines because by the time make the vaccine the vaccines that work anymore for some of the strains that populate through these are very mutagenic so similarly by the time a vaccine comes out for the original strain it's a moving target so unless they come up with some magic it's it's very unlikely that coronavirus is going to go away in 2021 it's potentially a double flu season now for doctors to contend with for years to come a double season so you get your corona season and you get your influenza season so what we're just going to [ __ ] live in and definite lockdown it's a crazy prospect you have to at some point accept that life is dangerous my grandfather lived with polio in that whole reality there was a president who had it Nixon had brothers who had tuberculosis and died but life goes on the economy can function humanity can function we still went to the moon despite the fact that medicine wasn't as evolved oh yeah the Greek universities for diploma validations that was a pilot that we did with a local firm and I believe it was University of Athens and it may have been NTU I'll have to look it was another Greek University as well and we completed that pilot and we used the permission ledger for it and it would a lot of the knowledge that we gained from that was the basis of what we did for the Georgia project for credential verification it's not the financially sexiest of things to do but it gets your foot in the door and then you can start talking around additional services once you have that set up you don't make a lot of money but it's a good customer acquisition play at a low cost back functionality that's really controversial I'm not a big fan of rollbacks unless they're explicitly built into a smart contract and both parties agree and it's not a protocol level thing but it's a value added feature that's particular to the contract Marlowe will somehow let you do that potentially but I'm not a fan of doing it at the protocol level like Yoast does I don't think it makes a lot of sense Charles what do you think about Iran in America can they act like this forever as the classic case of the immovable object meets the unstoppable force we were friends with Iran for a while even Richard Helms who used to run the CIA was the ambassador there and in his private life he even took care of the wealthy Iranian 's before the Revolution and the reason why we were friends is we displace the democratically elected government in the 50s and replaced it with a king and that King was hour-by-hour buddy it wasn't a nice guy but he was pro US and this is an example of the foolishness of foreign policy and the consequences of blowback in the 20th century everything from our relationship to Tenakee to Operation Paperclip with the Nazis we allowed to come to the United States to all kinds of horrible things that we've done from a foreign policy perspective in fact this was one of the principal reasons why I joined the Ron Paul campaign I was so profoundly tired about the hypocrisy of US foreign policy we are great people the people in United States for ethical people and were some best people in the world do business with in its best country bar none to live in the one flaw if not our greatest flaw I should say is our inability to really appreciate the magnitude of the things we've done as a nation-state beyond our borders and the consequences that these actions have held globally and what happens is is the minute they even start talking about a propaganda clicks in and people say you hate our soldiers or you think America is evil and in proportionality the reality is us or the commies the Soviet empire by no means were nice people they were people they killed a hundred million people throughout their reign they they invented the concept of of systematic destruction of human beings their psyche as communism is a sickness and anybody who subscribes to it is seduced by evil it's it's not good and of course everybody says oh well they didn't have the right flavor of it no I'm sorry there's no flavor that excuses mass murder or the government control of every fibre an aspect of your life so many ways people thought that the ends justified the means and so we looked at the world as a big chessboard in the United States made decisions to do things that were in a local sense and a private sense profoundly evil because they believed that they were pushing for a greater good to eventually win a cold war against an enemy that we could not directly attack because of nuclear warfare so sensible reason decides to never talk about these things they just talk about meaningless things about who who says we shouldn't Jack Lysol or not but we never actually talk about our relationship with the entire world so Iran is no different in that respect here we have a regime that is also a bad regime the Iranian government is evil because they oppress their people they force a theocratic regime on people they stone gay people they do horrible things and there is no excuse for the things that they do to their people they no one lives in freedom in Iran the Iranian people are as tired of their government as we are and we see every opportunity they get they take to the streets and they protest and they're trying very hard to get real meaningful political change and they tend to get battered down time it again so then there's an open question within the foreign policy circles of well do sanctions make sense the Obama administration felt that perhaps through trade and perhaps through a and embracing we could gradually D radicalize the government and over time the old guard would die off in the new guard that came would not have the same political mandate to enforce tyranny the more can of elements feel that the only option is regime change which has never really worked well for us especially in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places and so what you do is you put these regime in a pressure cooker and you get them to a point where they get very brittle and then you wait for an opportunity to come and push the regime for example coronavirus is a great opportunity for that viewpoint to potentially create a decapitation strength key members of the government got ill and died the government's credibility is broken they can't get proper medical supplies which creates incredible civil unrest in the in the government in perhaps that can be leveraged nollette no crisis go to waste so really [ __ ] up way of thinking but that's the nature of spycraft and as the nature of statecraft you don't think of things in moral terms or ethical terms you don't think about the tragedies people endure you're asking how does this create weakness the very same people look at russia and they look at vladimir putin's stability as leader of russia and they realized that he's a king one oils 150 dollars a barrel on oil is $15 a barrel his economy's not gonna last very long and then there's gonna be a lot of long knives reaching for him and his power base will rapidly deteriorate the very same people look at Gees prominence in china and they realized that if we can turn the world against china as a consequence of their response to coronavirus it could create a depression within china which would dramatically weakened jeeze position and the Mandate of Heaven will shift and he'll be pushed out of power the very same people are looking to kim giman i've read reports that he had a heart surgery and the doctor who performed the heart surgery had coronavirus and spread it to him and he was ventilated or in a very serious condition and that's why an elite chinese team of doctors who happen to be connected to Wuhan Caine went to North Korea and so that's why people tend to believe he's dead or not doing so well or doesn't have a good long-term prognosis this disease particularly is very very vicious on the fat and Kim jong-un is fat guy so there's evil in the world and no one has blood free hands perhaps Switzerland does because nobody cares to invade them and they have decided to recuse themselves from the world but they have different kinds of blood there's more than a single bar of Nazi gold floating around that country so the consequences are that you just have to look at things from a nuance perspective and understand if your goal is perfection then you're never going to find it if your goal is purity you're never going to find it the Vatican Bank is just as corrupt as the rest of them even the nations that prospectus peek for God they don't speak so well about it instead what you have to do is ask yourself well kind of a world would you like to live in and how should nations interact with each other and how should people interact with each other and when you choose liberty and freedom and you choose peace and trade generally things work out better for the most part and people get along for the most part but you have to have faith that people can be tolerant of each other and accept each other for who they are and you have to have faith that people can ultimately set aside their worst impulses and embrace their better angels of their nature the tools certainly help the communication medium certainly help but bad incentives cause lots of problems and that's the story of the 20th century in a nutshell by the way the 21st century is going to be no different we are facing existential problems in a certain respect the rise of AI super concerning people are criticizing musk for his Twitter meltdown I will remind you that he's one of the few people around who has the resources and the mindset to actually make meaningful progress on the strong AI problem of how do we avoid this thing from ending the human race it's amazing that we don't really think in these terms we ask ourselves well what will happen 10 generations from now 20 generations from now when we released this technology let's say that coronavirus was not a manufactured disease it's not inconceivable that the next one won't be an escape from a lab and be far far worse what if you mix some rabies in with your HIV with your corona virus I'm because would you like to catch that I mean look we're entering an age where this engineering is possible and it's not in conceived that nation-states are experimenting and toying with it and not inconceivable that small very radicalized groups of crazy people because of the cost reduction of doing these things will develop the sophistication necessary to unleash these things upon the world so when you have these existential problems in the past it was nuclear warfare the past it was let's avoid another world war because we had to within a 20-year band when you have these existential problems you do need some governance to work your way through it and solve these things and people have to get along somehow someway and unfortunately while you're thinking about how to do that you some cases have to give up some of your Liberty you have to accept that some of your personal freedoms may go away or you have to accept that some people may have additional power over you the point of our industry is to create tools that minimize that a third option between total liberty and total tyranny tyranny of necessity and liberty of morality - a third option where you can keep your Liberty but you get the value as if you lived in a more controlled environment that's the hope and that's what we're chasing that's why it's worth our life it's worth our time to actually be here and have these conversations and think about these things because we want to live in a world where we don't wake up one day and we we live in a dystopia we want to live in a world where somebody can't basically arbitrarily tell us that we have to stay in our home and can't leave what job we can work where our children get to go what schools they get to go to if any at all just because of an arbitrary factor and you can't change that and if you complain about it you get gulag it's it's certainly a huge issue and this is why we do what we do looking at Iran and America that's just a microcosm of a macrocosm of an even greater problem of how does the World Order work and how do we get the World Order to work better for everybody and how we actually make sure that nation-states are good to their people without resorting to the heavy hand of sanctions or spycraft or and tradecraft that involves assassinations and coos and these types of things and hopefully we get there but it's gonna take a lifetime of work Iran is a beautiful country - it's really a shame that it's been excommunicated from the nation-state it has the persian history is so rich and there's just so many amazing things that happen there great cuisine beautiful architecture and it was a wonderful place to go and visit years ago and now it's just isolated next communicated the same for the mountains of North Korea beautiful place as well there's so much natural beauty in that country and it's just the Hermit State now it's been excommunicated Charles do you follow theoretical physics topics your favorite studies for hip on there's a lot of cool math in theoretical physics so I can read some of the papers I can't make heads or tails if they're right or wrong because I don't have enough foundational physics knowledge to be able to assess things I can tell you that there using a lattice thing right or their way they're applying some metric tensors is right or whatever I mean I I know what the notation means and if I spend enough time staring at the paper eventually a few things make sense but it's not it's not my area of expertise do you think you could speak about your relationship with etc' over the past two years in the lens of being the CEO of IO HK has that relationship grown grown apart thoughts on the future relationship I got involved me TC for philosophical reasons it was the accidental project I was deeply disturbed because I've told this story so many times I don't even think it's worth going into all the nuances and details but very succinctly there was a social contract when the ICO occurred for aetherium and there's a lot of cowardice in the etherium inner circle people didn't want to say is it an ICO or not like when Joe Lubin gets interviewed did I did aetherium do an ICO can't give a statement why because he doesn't want regulation it's like okay Joe I know the game fair game fair game but come on some cases he calls fate is fate it was a nice yellow they raise money great and there was an unclear social contract yet the Bitcoin people coming in saying we want better Bitcoin we believe code is law you created funny words like Ella Gala tea words matter philosophy matters and immutability is important then yet another group of people that came in saying we want to do stuff defy we want to build things and it's the experimental platform you got changed the platform and we're gonna make mistakes and screw stuff up now what was the ratio of Coda's law versus move fast and break things he didn't know and so my opinion was if you take a dollar from those people even if it's 90 91 you are defrauding at least one person when you suddenly change the whole social contract of the system and you cannot do a vote with 8 percent participation on a knee-jerk reaction and say that is a justification to do something maybe it's right maybe it's wrong so I said there needs to be both options you have at aetherium classic and aetherium and the foundation should support both and let the community decide which one they want to support and he will see through hash rate and market cap and deployment on the chain which way to go and had they done that the market would have probably still chosen the same outcome which was 80/20 or 90/10 terms of market capitalization hash rate and other such things fine so I put my money where my mouth was because they weren't willing to do it I spent a million and a half dollars of my own money building mantas and hiring community managers like Cristian suburi know and Carlos Bukhari and then later on I hired Kevin Lord when we created let's talk et Cie and we did tons of things in that ecosystem and then I created a plan I wrote it all down I said guys if you want to innovate I wrote a blog post and said this is a direction where you go to clearly differentiate our community and ecosystem from etherium we can't say we're all following Vitalik original vision if we're created as a divergence from vitalik it's like this bizarre thing like when the the Meiji Restoration was happening in Japan and the samurai were rebelling against the government but still supported the emperor and said they're rebelling for the emperor against the Emperor's government come on guys you just can't do that you have to carve your own path and go down your own way and that was not really accepted by the etherium classic community they didn't want to do a Treasury I got brutally attacked by some members of the committee they wrote these bizarre articles saying it was a hostile takeover and a coup if we were attempting the hostile takeover coup the etherium classic community we would have just simply heart forked and said deal with it pound sand and fracture the community and used standard SIOP techniques to drag people with us it would have been easy to do that but that wasn't the point we said this is what we'd like to do and the community said now we don't really want to innovate we don't want to change the EVM very substantially we don't want to change the consensus protocol we don't want to do things that are distinctly different from aetherium and I said okay well can we at least get some funding from anta's we spent a million 1/2 dollars of our own money to build this client in Scala at that point it was the only client that was built from the ground up 100% new code specifically for et Cie full node for et Cie and at one point it worked on both the theory and etherion classic so we actually were at the in core developer as a consequence of this we even paid to formalize the EVM through through K we spent a quarter million dollars on that we give all of this the et Cie community and they say no funding we're not going to give you any money in fact we're gonna be partial funding and Bob summer well had the balls to say I would look petty if I demanded a hundred percent funding I'd only get a partial subsidy to work on ATC he's literally sent this to me in an email I could not believe reading these things I'm like guys I've cared your water for you for years I built a client from nothing and paid for it myself and I gave it to the community for free as a starting point and I also have a beautiful roadmap we could use can you please subsidize at least supporting this particular client and I say you get a partial subsidy what are we supposed to do just be a charity case for the rest of time with a project that doesn't want to listen to these things and wants to go in a different direction they have every right to go in a different direction but if we're not really able to contribute or collaborate and nobody's gonna really pay us to do anything in the ecosystem then why are we there what value are we providing other than to make people who don't like us in aetherium money who happen to hold on to their etc' it's just a stupid thing it was just a crazy thing from that perspective and I tried very hard to build good relationships there and I tried very hard to to find peace and a way of getting that where it needed to go and what they figure it out for themselves is a stable community there's some good people there actually a lot of the community members in e.t.c and i get along with a lot of the community members in e.t.c and we have no animosity there it's just there's no commercial interest for our io HK there's nothing we can make money on and it makes no sense for us to deploy DAPs on if you're him classic why we'd have to write them in solidity on a broken design model that we've already determined through tens of millions of dollars of research does not work and that's why we build car dotto is why we wrote Plutus and Marlowe in the extended u TX elmo we surely spent four years painfully working our way to a different model for dabs so we won't be able to build any gaps on aetherium classic because they're sticking with the EVM they won't even go to yella a better model a much much better model so there's no adapts I can build that make any sense there's not a lot of network effect there there's not a lot of people using this so there's no network captured where I can get people from that so what do I gain where where's the business model for this yes I philosophically agree with it because I was there in the beginning and we had an unclear social contract everybody deserved the option and people chose and they went off on their own side and now they're very divergent projects and they have different leadership and different people great but mission accomplished then the moral obligation was met and I put my money where my mouth was I spent over a million and a half dollars of my own money more than most people will see in a lifetime and no one paid me for it and my thank-you from that community was well okay and then I think to myself okay if somebody came into the card Auto ecosystem and spent a million and a half dollars building their own wallet and independently contributing and helping us out and providing a really cool roadmap I would invite that person to my ranch and I would cook them bacon in the morning and whatever they wanted to do that day if they want to go horseback riding they want to go to the Estes Park you want to go drive the mountains in my cars whatever we go do that I'd be like this dude is nice this is a good person we should keep and value these people in our ecosystem there are people in our ecosystem that send me recipes for venison yeah I read their letters out and I take the time of day to acknowledge them and that's a small thing compared to that contribution and what do we get for it nothing so it's not it's not a good community in that respect or a welcoming community in that respect and it just it deeply bothered me it really did and made me sad because it felt like unfinished business and it felt we really legitimately could have done something great so we still have a team that writes Scala code and they're doing super cool amazing things and it's so sad that those amazing things that they're doing will not benefit the etherium classic ecosystem they'll just do something else and it's very soon the world will see that innovation that they've done but it's it's just those case studies where people shoot themselves in the foot and it's a consequence of poor governance and a lack of respect for some desire to unify around divergence to get out of a safety zone and go somewhere real and it's just sad and we thought about it a lot and we tried we went to Vancouver we went to Korea we went to Hong Kong we went to all the summits I really honestly tried and I met everybody there we really tried to build relationships and I'm sad that those relationships are not better that said we learned a lot there was incalculable value working on if you're in classic with that parallel Scala team because well it didn't slow down card no this is another one of those idiot C's of molten tar monster they believe that somehow because we had developers from a totally different company writing in a totally different program language totally different management in a different part of the company using different funds that somehow slowed down the Cardinal delivery would that have made a Guillou straight the Ouroboros papers faster no would that have made the programming language people develop pollute is faster no what it did do is it gave us a deeper understanding of where aetherium with that so we could better compete with it so it was industrial espionage in that respect we knew where all the bodies were buried after we built in aetherium wallet because we had to build it so every little workaround and bug and problem and little thing that was a moral hazard or a technological hazard in that design we could then take all that knowledge and give it to the guys designing Plutus and the guys designing Cardno and say hey look let's not do that we would have not been in that position had we not built mantas so there was an enormous value that we gained out of the construction of mantas I'm just sad that mantas never got bigger everybody who used mantas overwhelmingly positive response to it was more our fastest project our most transparent project if you go to the I which K YouTube page you can see weekly videos with Allen McSherry and his team every single week systematically saying this is what we plan on doing these four stages this is where we're at and this is what we did this week developers go seven developers every one of them what did you do this week and they do a little demo demo after demo after for a year and a half they did that every week mmm he's just amazing transparency on that and it worked with both aetherium and etherion classic and it was 10,000 lines of code for a full note the most concise etherium client ever built by any team and we built it for a million and half dollars they raised eighteen million dollars and they barely got something out of the tour so it's just it was I'm very proud of that and I was very sad about where that ecosystem went and I was very sad about some of the blog posts that were written and how we were treated by e.

t.c dev and where they would actually repost these clearly slanderous blog posts over and over again just for fun and they just kicked us in the teeth just for fun I'm just saying we're here to help guys if you treat your allies this way what the hell are you gonna do to your enemies huh but you live you learn this is how being a CEO is about you have products that don't quite go the way you want to go you can always find the silver lining somewhere you can always find a light at the end of the tunnel somewhere you you always can move on and do greater things and actually because our participation that theorem classic wasn't as successful as we needed it to be it gave us a lot of time to think about better ways of doing Treasury better ways of handling social dynamics and also a lot more stuff about ways to create more Network value for cardinal so ultimately was a better benefit for the Cardinal project I've just said that for that particular group of people we weren't able to do more for them that said they're doing their own thing and they got their own ecosystem and et Cie is now it's its own reality and it's able to govern itself so from our decentralisation viewpoint they seem to be perfectly happy where they're at and says there's always well we really do and if there ever was an opportunity for us to come back in and there was real funding available not this will give you a 70% or 60% and you have to do it on a shoestring budget and nobody can speak English no it's real funding we'd actually come back in at least get mantas to work and and follow a conservative roadmap because I really do enjoy writing software in that ecosystem even if it's flawed you got to get passionate about this stuff too you really do I you live long enough to have a real opinion and have the courage to express it back it with facts events circumstances and be passionate about it love it a lot of people disagree with me I'm a strong personality and I've been very vocal and I really push hard on things it pisses the hell out of people but every now and then they say I'm right and at least it forces the conversation and I'm fully willing to admit that some of the things I think may be wrong but at the end of the day I at least try to bring to the table something new in refreshing and a different way of thinking about things that I hope eventually ends up being useful to somebody somewhere in the world the work we did on et Cie actually valued aetherium it helped aetherium because we gave them the first set of formal semantics for the etherium virtual machine little things like that that brought real value to the theorem class to the theorem ecosystem and we actually gained some good friends out of that and good people to talk to you out of that and it's not black and white you and I go to F dev or any of these aetherium conferences I do meet a lot of people here in community we actually have good relationships with it or card out on what buyers as a direct consequence of some of the work we've done so that creates value where you find it so keep an open mind and don't take things too seriously and I do get frustrated from time to time especially when I think I brought a deal to the table that makes everybody richer everybody better and makes the space as a whole better and for some reason nobody just wants to work with us or do something with it either because of ego or ignorant or cult of personality or in some cases just not really understanding what we're bringing to the table and not valuing it the same way that we value it we value peer review very heavily a lot of our competitors don't and I still involved in horizon yeah I still work with Robin we have a good relationship with them Romanow Leaney Cavanaugh's guys do that yeah well Bob Summer wall wrote a lot of nice tweets about Cardinal I have nothing personally against Bob I criticize the decisions and behaviors and comments that people make in the context that they're made not the people I will never criticize Bob I think he's a good actor and he's got a good heart I just thought it was very distasteful to tell me that I should continue working on a product with no profit and take a loss when there's no economic reality or upside it's basically a donation to a dead project that is not allowing us to contribute on equal terms with anybody else and there's not a lot of transparency in that leadership structure there so I told Bob that to his face told him that every email tell him here in this the same what he does and says things I don't I say it and what he doesn't says things that I agree with I say it too I drank maple syrup on the stage with the guy and I do it again and I'd be glad to continue going to dinner with him talking to him and every now and then if he comes to me with a good idea I'll look at it with a blank slate and believe that we can find common ground and so that's just the way I do things and we live in an age where somebody disagrees with you there's this assumption that they have to be disagreeable in your enemy the reality is that if you disagree with somebody it's should be for that thing and there's going to be other things you agree on but you don't get rid of the friendship you don't get rid of any of these other things and I'd like to consider that is the case with Bob and honestly words in the wilderness why somebody reject Manas I don't understand it it's a beautiful product it's it's one of my proudest moments I finally got a chance to finish what I started with a theorem and build a full aetherium node and we built it in a year and a half and we built it with a seven person team off of a million and a half dollars and it's better than anything to metallic or these other guys ever wrote and it was security audited by Cadell ski if you google et Cie mantas Cadell ski audit kayuu de l SQ y sk i you'll actually see a security audit for it so we produce also security audited code and we use scala check the semi formal methods in that development it was amazing i really loved it it was so much fun reading that guy i I'm a really good Scala guy loves Scala as a programming language it's one of my favorite languages and it was so much fun working on that I really enjoyed it so yeah I don't know why do I anybody reject it it's it's also very pragmatic like because you get everything from the Java ecosystem the whole JVM SBT is a great tool the JVM is a great ecosystem there's tons of stuff there yeah you take a little bit of a performance hit there's tons of things you can do to optimize right your crypto and rust there's all kinds of things you do for that but Jesus Christ yeah exactly the friendship between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams wonderful example or Bill Clinton and George HW Bush literally they ran against each other for president and at the when Clinton got older he considered HW Bush to be his dad I mean there's strange bedfellows in history and it's amazing that people could be so far about politically can can be friends and actually find common ground with each other hey Charles how many days for the friends and family Shelley test net I can't give dates I give those to Aparna but it'll the the Delta between the friends and family test that and the actual official test net for everybody my hope is both of them would live within the month of May unforeseen consequences could prevent that but there's nothing in indicating that that's going to be the case so there's going to be a close relationship between these two the exact delta it's up to the product managers to decide but if you think of what needs to be done between what we give to friends and family and what we give the steak full operator it's not significant and it really it's an opportunity for us to get a better experience for the next wave of people that come on so it's not like two discrete things it's more of a spectrum and then we get comfortable with that spectrum and then release that so I wouldn't imagine that that's a significant Delta well the theorem 2.0 make Cardno obsolete no in fact all the core protocols of Cardinal are better than what a theorem 2.0 will be once finished in every category we're more Byzantine resistant we have explicit blockchain based governance which theorem hasn't even touched at all we have a better idea of how to update the system we have a significantly better network design than anything that they've proposed in 2.0 and our consensus protocol is better plus with Hydra our theoretical throughput is orders of magnitude better than anything that can achieve with ledger base yarding and we don't have to implement enormous complexity to achieve ledger be sorry because we can do all this in a single shared environment with elaborate layer two solution and still it get a thousand TPS on the singles chart environment with maximum optimization makes no sense at all the theorem twos direction and it's a classic example of they tried 500 things they settle on one thing that made sense and they're just about to push their whole community into a world of trade-offs and endless debates over parameter this parameter that we're fighting over pledging and Kay imagine having 16 parameters you have to set and those parameters can mean that you lose your money it's much more controversy and they're gonna have F 2 and F 1 living at the same time so that's going to actually be in a theorem classic classic and they're gonna be a war with themselves during this transition at the minute that they said we're gonna have a fight over prague powell i knew for a fact that they had no intention of shipping proof of state quickly because why the hell would you even bother to change your proof of work algorithm if you're planning in deploying your proof of stick algorithm in a six-month time horizon why even have the fight just go straight to proof mistake unless you don't think it's gonna be six months it's gonna be two years three years and you need to solve your difficulty bob you need to solve your issues today hmm so I think there's a lot of intellectual dishonesty there and we wish him well and if they do cool stuff great but no it's not it's not all it's cracked up to be what about their ZK roll-ups yes dark where dumped a bunch of money into Starks an academic concept that is going to require a tsunami a metric fuckton of research to get into a practical contract i love le bent sauce and he's a good guy and we had an opportunity invest in stark where as well and we talked to him at euro kripp his papers are great they're post quantum resistant they've done cool things like stark decks there's there's good stuff there it's legitimately solid research and they are one of the pioneers in the ZK industry but there's a world of difference from being a pioneer in a science to go to reality and actually get that into a product they'd be the first to admit that and it's gonna require years and years and years and years of hard work to get to a point where these things are practical and I believe ultimately over arkad time five to ten years they'll probably get there which is why Intel ventures and others put money into their company it's a real thing there's real stuff there it's not fake it's real it's good research there's good scientists good engineers at that firm but it's a long arc we do ZK research we wrote Sonic's we implemented it it took a year and a half actually almost two years now from when we wrote the paper to the finalized implementation we just did the presentation with Markov cold YC patent we're opening those libraries up there in rust it was not easy it was very much not easy and Sonic is not even in the magnitude of complexity and scope of what Starks are trying to achieve there's just a lot more there that's in their agenda so do two roll-ups and all these other things it's some optimistic to believe that there in the short time horizon but they are the only mechanism that I've seen long term recursive snarks these types of structures to get to reclusive accountability when you have a petabyte scale system so they are a necessary long-term component it was very wise for vitalik to put money into it and I think that was one of the best teams to ride on we just had a unique advantage that we kind of went poached Microsoft at the Cambridge campus and it put us in a unique position where we were able to have a slightly different approach that we figured we could get the to market a little faster and also pursue slightly orthogonal research in particular private computation through non homomorphic means I just listen to say everything about f2 is inferior to car dato I may have just pointed out facts there are a third to a quarter Byzantine resistant depending on how they parameterize their protocol or fifty percent that's a fact okay so you disagree with facts okay you're an idiot it's just that simple you can also believe that you don't need to drink water try that out for a while you can also believe the earth is flat build your own rocket how'd that work out for the last guy who did it it's amazing to me how we've just gotten to a point where people just don't want to listen anymore they set their opinion in the sand and they say this is the way it is and I don't care if I get any evidence the contrary you're wrong I'm right okay if you believe in s2 go go go to that ecosystem it's big it's big ten go suck the go worship vitalik o goes bow at that shrine and love etherium and you'll be happy and you can go to little conferences and put your little unicorn shirt on and believe you have it all figured out until you don't that's fine and if i'm right okay if he's right okay pick your pick your people if you don't want to use facts and evidence and objective data to understand how the world works and you want to go by intuition and gut and cult of personality and persuasion then pick the people you agree with and live in those camps but at least have the common decency to leave the people who are focused on things that are empirical and following the peer review process alone because we don't listen to you it's not about persuading you I don't care if you the laws of physics as they are I don't care about your preferences for gravity or your belief in chemistry and somehow if you believe that the poisons not poison it won't be poison I really don't care and the laws of physics don't care about you science doesn't care about you facts are facts truth is truth there are absolutes in the world and perhaps in a world of unlimited genders and crazy of science maybe we started bending that a little bit but reality bends back and has a way of reminding you from time to time that things are what they are and what we do as a project is we take a step back and we say what our first principles and we put a flag in the ground and we say this is what we're doing these are our goals we go do it we prove it to people who aren't in our project they're outside of our project through the peer-review process in a formal structured way and only after they've said that they agree with it or at least it's a legitimate thing do we even consider bringing that idea into our product when we're talking about a serious protocol because this is people's money this is people's privacy this is people's identity it's their product if you want to follow a different philosophy of some engineers got together over pizza and they thought about it really hard and they think they got a good idea and the boy they're gonna be amazing then you go follow that philosophy maybe you get lucky maybe you get right okay great you won the lottery congratulations but if you want to follow a structured philosophy this is what you get and if it's Charles Hoskins and doing it if it's Sylvia McCauley doing it if it's a le bon assassin doing and it's dark where it does not matter it's the same you're drinking from the same well if you don't like that well go to a different well you're not welcome it has nothing to do with the ego here really doesn't it has to do with philosophy and it has to do with values and we have to not be afraid as a community to set a flag in the ground and fight the good fight we are not in this organization in this movement arguing for were better than aetherium we are arguing the merits of this project on its own foundations and we are saying who we are we are saying this is the way we're going to do it's the pawl how most way of doing things tell them what you're going to do do it and tell them what you did that's what we've been doing since the beginning and every opportunity we have to point out explicitly that this is the case we do it it's not about fighting trolls it's about burning into the brains of everybody who evaluates this project who we are when we get criticized we often get criticized by people who have different values the price didn't go up so you're a scam this other project says X Y & Z and it seems to be better on the ticket than you and we said well did they validate it and they say no we said well then that's why we don't say those things we could say crazy things I could wake up tomorrow and make press and tweet Hydra has 1 billion transactions per second I could do that and there would be a coin Telegraph article and all this other things and if Y all this hype it wouldn't be real because it'd be asterisks there would be an explain a disclaimer and when you actually try to implement it you wouldn't get that performance and we wrote blog post explicitly explaining that this is a bad metric to think about these systems as if the only decision metric you have is that vanity metric because you don't understand anything else then when our competitor says they have a billion or a million or some number that's larger than ours you say they are better be them why aren't you them you're inferior to them and you're like well guys you don't understand the game we're playing here so it's not about ego it's about saying this over and over again in defending the process it is sacred the process has to survive it is the only way we're going to dig our ways out of the technical and scientific debt that we have every single protocol Bar None today in market cannot scale to a billion users that's just the fact anybody who tells you otherwise is Craig right they're lying to you they are pathological liars or they're idiots they don't understand what they're doing this is where we're at and the things that we would have to do as an industry to get to a billion users would require us to make trade-offs we as an industry are not willing to make mass centralization of the protocol to a collection of small actors huge subsidies to certain people special powers to special people all kinds of things that would add enormous amounts of fragility to the system and basically trade Google one for Google two that's where we're at the point of the process we've been following with Cardno is to use science to create a different path so you can get to a billion users but you don't have to have those insane trade offs you can create a decentralized system that's still functional and resilient and has all those principles that we've come to know and love with Bitcoin are we there yet no but the only way we're gonna get there as an ecosystem the whole thing is through peer review why because the complexity of these protocols are beyond anything one human being can build no human being alive can replicate the internet that we have today why because it's an emergent system that is the consequence of the labor of millions of people every day similarly when you talk about protocols that will service the unique needs of a billion people preserving very important principles like inclusive accountability and a reversibility and never throwing away data all kinds of these things that are super draconian design restrictions and Byzantine resistance and dynamic and decentralize ins etc etc etc no human being is smart enough or small team is smart enough to come up with a set of protocols to do that today so how do you do it you turn it into a collective problem for all the universities in the world and all the bright people of the world to understand and work on just like cancer is a collective problem HIV is a collective problem going to space as a collective problem and if it's understandable and it's stated in a culturally neutral agnostic decidable way that people really get and they can hold on to then anyone can work on that without permission and a graduate student and a professor any engineer and there is a meritocratic standard when you publish your paper nobody knows who you are nobody knows your credentials you could be a high school dropout you could be Sylvia McCauley attorney medal winner Turing Award winner doesn't matter the spectrum all they see is the title of the paper the abstract in the body of work and it goes through that same channel as everybody else and if you follow the rules you can do that and the point of projects like hartano is that we are turning on every university to this concept and getting people interested throughout their entire professional lives to figure out how to preserve the principles we care about but at the same time scale the system to billions of people and not give up the trade-offs who is being egotistical and arrogant and dishonest are the people in our industry who say we're already there and we've already achieved this they're lying to you and they're lying to you to make money from you they're leading you down the road to hell they're saying they have things we know they don't have because the science isn't there that the engineering is not there there's no demonstrated protocol I remember when Ellis was saying to half a million transactions per second just napkin calculations would tell you how absurd that statement is one kilobyte transactions half a million that's what a 500 megabyte block of 500 megabytes every second in your network what kind of an internet connection can relay that how do you propagate that through the entire system there are no protocols to do that in a replicated system none without massive centralization massive control by small group of actors is that a cryptocurrency then but they made these statements and raised money on these statements this is where our competitors are at this is what these people are doing in the industry so I get all these trolls that come in and they parent what they've heard and what we do is we fight them and then they'd somehow they find out little by little they lose certainty and they start realizing that the propaganda that they've been inculcated with is wrong or they don't and if they don't they get pushed out it's an immune system and if they do they haven't awakened any and they realize that they're being treated dishonestly by the space as a whole and at the very least here's what's gonna happen they lose faith when the project doesn't deliver if you claim you can do X and you can't do X there's only so long you can give people the kool-aid before they die or they leave and then when they leave then who do they go back to they go back to the people who were honest with them in the beginning who told them the difficult truths you can't break the laws of physics there's no free lunch if you want to get rid of the trade-offs you have to do new things you can't just take old things packaged them up put a new name on it put a new coat of paint on and pretend you've invented something no no if you actually want to do it there's no substitute for the hard work and because it's a collective enormous problem of a global scale the only way you're going to solve that problem is making it accessible to as many people as possible and collectively solving the problem bit by bit piece by piece it's not sexy we've written over 60 papers at i/o HK 60 that's a good academic career 60 meaningful papers we're the number one company in the world for citations in the cryptocurrency space if you look at our citations objectively just go to Google look at the papers look at the citation counts add them together compare them to our competitors are we done no we've laid the foundations and there are years two decades of work to get us to that utopia that we want to get to of a billion people but the thing I'm confident about is the processes right it's not a hero it's just thinking in terms of of of the Rolling Stone effect the avalanche effect once you've started this it's irreversible it's a good idea guys we went from nobody to a project that donated money to a United University a state school and got not only the university but the state to match funds with our currency and we did that in just a few years from lodge and that lab is going to produce enormous value for that University it's going to train great graduate students and give them great careers it's going to create jobs in the state of Wyoming it's going to produce academic peer-reviewed papers it's going to create real products that are gonna authenticate watches and shoes and other things and more importantly it's a small brick in a bigger wall that we're constructing that legitimizes a university working with this protocol and in a very short period of time no one's going to come to me they're going to go right to the Treasury system the students groups and the professors and say I want to do research in the Cardinal protocol and they're going to treat Cardinal the NSF and what does that mean we've just opened up the welcome mat for millions of academics across the world every country on an equal playing ground to collaborate and participate and have ideas and bring new concepts to our ecosystem how the hell is f/2 better than that they don't have any mechanism to facilitate this it's basically whoever's leading that project who's ever in the inner circle is that's the extent of their mental capacity in what we as a movement have done is created an inevitability that every University in the world can now participate and play in our sandbox and all the future Einstein's the future Fermi's the future teri Taos they can he'll look to us to fund their dreams and fund their their research if it's relevant to our domain can we get that forever and there's no country that owns it there's no intellectual property there's no patents it's yours is as much mine that's the system we've constructed because that's what you get when you have principles that's what you get when you tell people what you're gonna do and you're honest about it and you do it you might take more time to do it you might find out that the road that you're on is shut and you have to take a detour and go around and it's a lot longer journey but if you continue the discipline the intellectual honesty and most importantly the process you'll get there and when you get there you inspire other people to continue the journey with you and those people when they continue the journey with you time and again what do they do they bring new ideas they bring new approaches and inevitably they come up with that idea that cures the cancer that idea that allows you to scale to a billion people and do it with the trade-offs that we as a community are willing to take I will never tell you that this is an easy thing a short-term thing it is a philosophical thing and it's a work thing it's a discipline thing and it's a process and my job is to push the boulder down the hill is to I had to push it all the way up to the top of the hill we got it there and we give just a little bit of a push that first domino that's why the tagline of IOH K is cascading disruption this concept of a little bit of a push cascades and gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and 20 years from now I will wake up and it's irreversible and inevitable we have set the wheels in motion and we are there and no one else has that this is the core value proposition of Cardno and it's why we get so passionate about these things it's why we fight these things is why we call these trolls out because we're trying to make the point and put the flag in the ground and get people there and I will never apologize for that ever if you don't the style okay you don't have to it there are other people in this project there's other ideas in this project so many other leaders in this project I'm just one of many voices and I have a particular style and a particular way of doing things but no means does it have a monopoly on this project as a whole and if you're a different style find that person attached to them but you have to be in love with the process and if you're not it's not for you go do something else listen to the sweet little lives of our competitors why did you name your [ __ ] put up in Hong Kong because we were in Hong Kong how do you feel about buybacks to get me started with stock buybacks yet these companies they have no integrity the times they're good they go and buy stock by stock buy their stock back make the shareholder price go up and then the minute that a crisis happens oh we have no savings we need a bailout or else we'll collapse please help us Microsoft one of the reasons why it succeeded was Bill Gates was a very conservative businessman he had in certain respects he was very aggressive in other respects but on the balance sheet was very conservative they always had at least one to two years of resources on hand make no money at all they still could pay all their people in the company for at least a year year of burn rate if not more why because they lived in an age when they invoice people it'd take a year for somebody to pay them if they ever got paid so there was a constant cash flow issues and strong balance sheet was what kept you alive anyway today companies don't seem to get that concept they're just we'll run it on overdrive give all the value to the shareholders the minute a crisis happens because we're necessary for the economy we have it covered by a bailout that's the moral hazard of a bailout it's used to call it the Greenspan put than it was the brigand Bernanke helicopter cash and now it's just like crazy six trillion dollars out of thin air I don't really it you gotta eventually let some of these companies got a business and if they don't got a business then we get what we deserve by the way why do people hate Bill Gates so much I'd hazard a guess he's a fake person now and what I mean by that is that there was the real Bill Gates during the 1990s and 80s and 60s 70s and 60s and he was a ruthless businessman and he delighted and being a ruthless businessman if you look at the interviews of him in the 90s you had this guy who's I'm gonna crush you and you're and I'm just gonna take joy in crushing you and here's this little smile on his face and everybody got that they understood it he was the king of his jungle and we as business people we admired that we said wow look how ruthless this businessman is look what he can accomplish look what he's built he turned Microsoft into a six hundred billion dollar company and now he's the savior of the world and there's this cognitive disconnect between Bill Gates the ruthless businessman and Bill Gates the savior of the world and people have a hard time reconciling those two things the body language doesn't match you see a lot of duper's delight when he's when he's talking and he says we need to do X but then you're always wondering like there's got to be more to this a guy like this doesn't doesn't think this way he thinks this other way and this is why people see a fundamental lack of sincerity in in pill I don't for a moment believe he's gotten rid of his competitive nature you you just can't if you I love deep thought on things that was a mathematician I remember one time I worked on a single math prom for 26 hours I started to am I finished at 4:00 a.

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